35 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

I want to make a point about ghost heat that was brought up on the PTS stream with no guts no Galaxy today.

They found that firing rotary cannons off sync would cause unexpected ghost Heat. Well to tell the truth it was not unexpected. Ghost heat has harbored a technical flaw and has not functioned properly for years. This is why the AC/2 had very strange ghost heat behavior and PGI had to completely un-ghost Heat it in order to make the AC/2 systems work.

Chris might start investigating this as a "RAC" problem, where he will find a dead-end.
The problem with staggered weapons restarting the 0.5 second window and incorrectly applying GH is a Global Bug, not a RAC bug.
This is not a patch specific comment.

Whenever you chain fire weapons non-synchronously then they still count towards your ghost heat threshold even when they should not. This is very easy to demonstrate in any Mech that can carry four long-range missile launchers.

Put two of your launchers on firing group one and put the other two of your launchers on fire in group 2. Put both groups on chain fire. If you synchronously fire both groups you will fire all four of your launchers with no Ghost Heat. If you Chainfire them Non-synchronously however you will experience significant ghost heat even though you fired the same four weapons in chain fire over a longer period of time than before


Fire them in sync - no penalty. Stagger them and then you do get a penalty. This is counterintuitive and demonstrates that ghost heat does not function properly with staggered weapons fire.

This is why the new no guts stream showed the rotary cannons experiencing unexpected ghost heat. Well it was only unexpected to them because they did not know that the system is broken.

To conclude, stagger-firing multiple weapon groups that are in chain fire mode will cause unexpected and inappropriate ghost heat, but synchronously chain firing multiple weapons group will avoid ghost heat like it supposed to.

This problem will persists regardless of what PGI does with rotary cannons because the problem is not restricted to rotary cannons. The problem is due to the fact that Ghost Heat is incorrectly applied whenever you stagger fire multiple weapon groups.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 28 June 2017 - 03:03 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I think the part that has to get into the dev's radar is that Chris might start investigating this as a "RAC" problem, where he will find a dead-end.

The problem with staggered weapons restarting the 0.5 second window and incorrectly applying GH is a Global Bug, not a RAC bug.

[STEF_]

Heat and GH make RAC useless.
RAC spreads (LOL) and has charge time too.

Must be fix.

edit: if not, disappoint level: 9001

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 28 June 2017 - 02:47 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Stefka Kerensky, on 28 June 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Heat and GH make RAC useless.
RAC spreads (LOL) and has charge time too.

Must be fix.

edit: if not, disappoint level: 9001

This is a thread about how Ghost Heat resets the 0.5 second penalty window whenever you add in a staggered weapon group. It applies to all weapons in the game, but NGNG just made it publicly noticed because it just so happened to be when they were using RACS.

The RACs generated SO MUCH heat because it was repeatedly restarting the 0.5 window and applying damage as if you were shooting more than 2 RAC weapons at a time.

[STEF_]

Prosperity Park, on 28 June 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

This is a thread about how Ghost Heat resets the 0.5 second penalty window whenever you add in a staggered weapon group. It applies to all weapons in the game, but NGNG just made it publicly noticed because it just so happened to be when they were using RACS.

The RACs generated SO MUCH heat because it was repeatedly restarting the 0.5 window and applying damage as if you were shooting more than 2 RAC weapons at a time.

I pointed out that, apparently, Chris was so worried about OP RAC, that the PTS version RAC is nerfed to the ground.
Of course, Imho.

About GH, it should be with 3 RAC, not 2.
2 is not boating

[JC Daxion]

Stefka Kerensky, on 28 June 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Heat and GH make RAC useless.
RAC spreads (LOL) and has charge time too.

Must be fix.

edit: if not, disappoint level: 9001

I don't care about the ghost heat, as much as the normal heat.. They are really hot, Even just one.

IMO they are like truly heavy machine guns.. Which i am ok with, but they can't be that hot.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Stefka Kerensky, on 28 June 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

I pointed out that, apparently, Chris was so worried about OP RAC, that the PTS version RAC is nerfed to the ground.
Of course, Imho.

About GH, it should be with 3 RAC, not 2.
2 is not boating

And a good discussion about RAC potency should be hosted in the PTS section of the forums. This discussion is about how a core game mechanic is dysfunctional from an intended-function perspective.

If GH worked, then firing a couple of RAC/5 cannons would not be able to trigger GH because the limit is 2. However in practise, if you fire one and then the other and let them whirl, then each bullet fired out of sync is treated like a new weapon being added in and that's why it's triggering GH so much.

[STEF_]

JC Daxion, on 28 June 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

I don't care about the ghost heat, as much as the normal heat.. They are really hot, Even just one.

IMO they are like truly heavy machine guns.. Which i am ok with, but they can't be that hot.

In this first version of RAC (it's pts, I'm waiting for fix), I see no reason to replace UAC5 with RAC5

Prosperity Park, on 28 June 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

And a good discussion about RAC potency should be hosted in the PTS section of the forums.

Yep, you are right.
Going to post something there.

[Brizna]

I tried 4 rot5 and 6rot2 on Mauler, my mech lab was already telling me it was stupid but I had to try

I went from 0 to full heat in like 3 seconds lol. It did make a lot of noise, I'd like to get a recording about what the atlas I was firing at felt... it was like 150 dmg almost instantly then I blowed up due to over heat haha.

[Kmieciu]

Prosperity Park, on 28 June 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

The problem with staggered weapons restarting the 0.5 second window and incorrectly applying GH is a Global Bug, not a RAC bug.
This is not a patch specific comment.

This is absolutely correct.
Another example: SRM2 has a ghost heat limit of 6.
But using mechs with significant missile cooldown reduction quirks will enable you to incur GH penalty with only 3 x SRM2. If your mech is able to stagger - fire them more often than every 0.5 seconds, you will reach the penalty after the 6th shot.

That's because if you shoot more often than every 0.5s, ghost heat counter will never reset.

Prosperity Park, on 28 June 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

Chris might start investigating this as a "RAC" problem, where he will find a dead-end.

He will find a dead-end because that 0.5 second timer is the basis of the ghost heat system. It cannot be changed. This is how ghost heat was supposed to work.

The only real solution is to move to a non-discrete system like the "power draw".
Instead of the heat penalty resetting every 0.5 second, it should decrease linearly (100% penalty @ 0 seconds, 0% penalty @ 0.5 seconds)

Edited by Kmieciu, 29 June 2017 - 01:00 AM.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Well that's how it has worked. I woudln't say different weapons restart the ghost heat window, but how it works, you need to leave 0.5 second interval in between shots. If you don't leave that 0.5s which breaks the sequence, all the fired weapons will count in the ghost heat sequence increasing the amount of weapons fired in "same" time.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 29 June 2017 - 02:40 AM.

[Tarogato]

This bug seen here with SRM2s like... over a year ago

[Greyboots]

Prosperity Park, on 28 June 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

I think the part that has to get into the dev's radar is that Chris might start investigating this as a "RAC" problem, where he will find a dead-end.

The problem with staggered weapons restarting the 0.5 second window and incorrectly applying GH is a Global Bug, not a RAC bug.

This is kind of incorrect because it is working as intended and they should create ghost heat.

Ghost Heat only cares about a space being between the number of SHOTS from weapons/linked weapon groups not the number of WEAPONS themselves. Eg:

• Fire 2 PPCs then 2 PPCs after a .5 second interval and there's no ghost heat.
  
• Chain fire 4 PPCs at .25 second intervals and the 3rd will generate ghost heat with the 4th generating more than the 3rd as the ghost heat ramps up.

Ghost heat is not the "number of weapons you can fire" and never has been, it's the "Number of shots before there has to be an interval of .5 seconds". The language used around the ghost heat system, including by Devs, has always been very misleading. This has in turn led people to believe this is some sort of "bug" rather than a product of the way it's been implemented and is in fact "working as intended".


In your example, synched chain fire intervals don't break the ghost heat barrier so 9 LRM5s on 3 weapon groups, all set to chain fire (an alternate example of the SRM2 example above):

• Fire all 3 groups synchronously and you can fire 9 LRM5's at their full DPS with no ghost heat.
  
• Stagger fire the groups and ghost heat galore even though you fire no more or less LRMs than before (exactly the same DPS) in the same overall amount of time because they constantly reset the Ghost Heat timer.

Your end result is correct in that RACs simply can't function under the ghost heat system as their high rate of fire when out of sync perpetuates the ghost heat timer.


Unlike other weapons in the examples above however, RACs are so convoluted (spin up/down, high rate of fire and jam mechanic) that player skill is unlikely to be able to reliably control how RACs interact with Ghost Heat.

This does make it a 'RAC problem' rather than a 'generic bug' from a Dev's perspective because there is no bug. Ghost heat works as intended, RACs just don't play well with that system in a way they didn't forsee. The Devs are aware of how ghost heat works, and it's issues, and they tried to replace it once already (I don't know why it didn't work out, you'd have to research it).

I dare say this is just a case of them not considering the fact that, unlike C-UACs that simply fall into synch intuitively for players, RACs would be out of synch in separate weapon groups and after jams because of the spin up mechanic and play hell with ghost heat.

Edited by Greyboots, 29 June 2017 - 06:33 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

JC Daxion, on 28 June 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

I don't care about the ghost heat, as much as the normal heat.. They are really hot, Even just one.

IMO they are like truly heavy machine guns.. Which i am ok with, but they can't be that hot.

However they kind of should be hot but I didn't really feel that they were. Overall in my testing I found the RAC to be pretty decent. As long as I was only firing the RAC, my heat hardly moved at all, like 1% increase a second. I ended up using my RAC whenever I was hat 80% or higher heat to maintain my DPS until I could get in cover. Also the cockpit shake on the enemy mech has to be quite brutal. What they didn't do well was boat and honestly I think that is a very good thing. I think where they shine is on a mech with a single Ballistic hardpoint, supported by other weapons like MRMs, SRMs, Lasers, PPC varieties, etc. When I used them like that, they seemed to perform well.

[STEF_]

Viktor Drake, on 29 June 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

However they kind of should be hot but I didn't really feel that they were.

WHy? Quite the opposite!

In multiple barrel guns, heat is shared among....multiple barrels, so weapons like gatling are way cooler than single barrel ones.

[Tordin]

Also the odd heat spike using a RAC 2 and a RAC 5 at the same time, while using two of the same, two 2 or two 5 dosent create that spike at all.
Gotta be a bug.

M4J3ST1C mentions it in his stream.

Around this timeframe https://youtu.be/uHgZbv3crBI?t=4019

[J0anna]

Khobai, on 29 June 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

I personally think they have the RAC dps set way too high. 10 dps is absurd. It should be doing more like 5-6 dps reasonably (which still way higher dps than a double tapping UAC5). But its heat should also be lower and it should be able to fire longer before jamming.

And I think they should be doing 18 dps being that you have to stand in the open, holding your reticle on target, unable to precisely aim them at components while the explosions actually hide your targets. Not to mention that you can't 'snap fire' them. And guess what PGI doesn't give a damn what either of us thinks.....

Edited by J0anna, 30 June 2017 - 04:33 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

And I think they should be doing 18 dps

again an atlas-s brawler build only does about 10 sustained dps with ALL its weapons

so why should a weapon that weighs a fraction of an atlas do that much dps?

there seems to be a serious logical disconnect here. a weapon that weighs 10 tons should not be doing more dps than a 100 ton mech with all its weapons.

4-5 dps is pretty reasonable for a 10 ton weapon. 18 dps not so much.

Edited by Khobai, 30 June 2017 - 06:09 PM.

[Koniving]

Prosperity Park, on 28 June 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

The problem with staggered weapons restarting the 0.5 second window and incorrectly applying GH is a Global Bug, not a RAC bug.

The sad thing is some of us reported this bug back in the first week of it coming out. However it wasn't considered a problem as it had the side effect of also dealing with macros that 'churned fire too quickly' and 'gaming the ghost heat' by using a macro to time two PPCs 0.1 seconds after two PPCs. As such it was a 'feature'.

Now the feature is being intrusive on weapon systems so perhaps they will fix it. Or revamp ghost heat entirely (2.0 wasn't a terrible concept but it needed work).

[Koniving]

Khobai, on 30 June 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

there seems to be a serious logical disconnect here. a weapon that weighs 10 tons should not be doing more dps than a 100 ton mech with all its weapons.

Agreed.

Though the landmine that PGI stepped on when giving the AC/20 3x the tabletop rating for damage (60 damage per 10 seconds, as opposed to 20 per 10 or TacOps' Rapid Fire ACs which is 40 per 10 at high risk, while UAC/20 is 40 per 10 at medium risk)...

It wasn't enough to go with AC/5 having 3x the tabletop rating, it has many times it...

So when an RAC/5, meant to produce 30 damage at max per 10 seconds has to be 6x faster than the AC/5... Yeah. DPS-wise that's 180.6 damage per 10 seconds while the AC/5 already produces slightly greater than 30 damage per 10 seconds.

To be in its proper lore/stat spot as PGI has mutilated weapon classes, it should be 9.03 damage per second given you know, PGI's great ideas on how the standard AC should work.
At 1.35 damage per second, it is inferior to the AC/5 (which is at 3.01 damage per second). So it definitely needs significant heat reductions. Or keep the heat as it is, but also increase the rate at which it would jam if put to that 9.03 damage per second. It wouldn't be as 'fun' though.

It's a shame it is too late to redesign all the weapons.

--------

Edit, wait is this damage ... Yep it's damage per bullet.
One sec.

It's currently 10.8 damage per second if that is the case. Nevermind.

....it's too powerful then.

Edited by Koniving, 30 June 2017 - 06:20 PM.