677 replies to this topic

[50 50]

Got to say that when I gave the ATMs a test out with a friend in the private lobby last night, I could have sworn they had a firing arc.

Anyway, to the points at hand.

It provides the versatility but you could say it is not better than the LRMs or SRMs when compared at those ranges.

What I would like to see is some different functionality with the weapons in the way we use them.
What if they functioned as a guided missile?
That is, direct fire and will move towards the targeting reticule.
Would be different.

[MechTech Dragoon]

I think 90 meter minimum is good, but 180 really is too much.
They aren't supposed to have a minimum range period :/, 90 is a good half way point.

[corpse256]

MischiefSC, on 29 June 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

ATMs at mid range are doing more damage and more viably with the faster, flatter trajectory. They sync well with ballistics. If they have no minimum range they're the best possible brawling weapon.

Again, currently I'm playing an Orion with a 116pt alpha.

116 pts.

If I could brawl with it like that it would be OP AF.

Dude these people can't read between the lines with all this math and crap they type about and they want this particular weapon to be more powerful than it already is. Issue is these players want the ATMs to replace the LRMs. Which it wont. You guys are complaining about nothing. The weapon system is fine. If you don't like it then don't use it. Simple as that. ATMs are not a boating weapon its a weapon that has to be mix with another weapon. fancy that you have to use other equipment for this weapon to work? 7 tons for 36 damage is really powerful has more power than an ac20 and people still complain? If you are in comp then don't use it. If your a standard player and love boating weapons like missiles then don't use this weapon. You have to mix it. The weapon system alone doesn't allow for you to pack a bunch of launchers and use it. The weapon will not be tuned to your liking because again SKILL(keyword) is required to use this weapon. I'm sorry if you hate that word? Because yes it will have to take SKILL, man there is that word again, to use this weapon system. I'm pretty sure this is a SKILL, oh man it keeps popping up,based game. Even Russ himself said this is a SKILLED, why does that keep happening, base game.

SO if you still want this weapon to be abused keep typing away that minimum range should be removed. Why the hell don't we do that for all weapons. Say good bye to IS LRM and clan LRM restrictions and hello boaters. Who ever has the most missiles and least amount of SKILL you can kiss your sweet *** good bye because lets not have a fair game anymore lets just let the clans always win. Great idea why don't you go make your own mech game and show how well you can make ATMs. I'm sorry nobody will play it cause that is the only weapon everyone will ever use? well...have fun.

I feel like I'm typing to a wall of people that think they know what a better game they would have if everyone were to missile boat. no offense but the people who want ATM minimum range to be removed have no clue what they are typing about. You say it would balance the game when it wouldn't you still have more powerful weapons than IS and you still complain about the additional heat penalty. I know everyone is passionate about this game but you guys need to look at the other side of things for once. Its never my way or the high way. Chris and Paul are working their butts off to get this in your tool box of weapons and all you can complain about is its not powerful enough when it is the most powerful missile in the game at the moment? WTF?

How about we just give all clans Mega Death Cannons so every shot a clan mech takes kills a IS mech in one hit that would just be the best.

They just don't understand what the weapon does thats all they still stuck to the backstory of what the weapon actually does. And guess what thats not going to happen because oh ya thats right its a video game.

If the weapon needs to be tweaked it will be later but for now its as good as your going to get it till weapons pass comes.

[Duvanor]

Since you do not understand what a public TEST, yeah that's a hard to understand word, server is for any discussion with you corpse256 seems pointless. This sever is put on to TEST, maybe read that in some dictionary cause it is really hard to understand, the new equipment and then give feedback after the equipment got TESTed (I think I see a pattern here).

All this has nothing to do with some clan guys wanting to have the better toys, by the way. But I am beginning to see where you are coming from. ATM, as it is right now, is mostly a worse version of LRM that can work better at 180-270 meters. What we want is an "ATM" and not "that weapon that is like a bad LRM launcher that is good at 180 to 270 meters". So our feedback, as well as some MathWarrior, is postet so that hopefully PGI takes a look into it. That's what this forum is about. You know, that TEST thing again.

[Monkey Lover]

They should ramp down like lrms. Basically worthless under 100m but you can do it.

[corpse256]

I guess you don't get it then because this weapon will not replace the LRM. I don't know how many times I have to type that. Its an alternate missile weapon system for a different type of play. But if you can't understand that then you don't get the weapon system built for the game. Has nothing to do with how the lore, because that for all the weapon systems isn't possible for a real time game. As Russ said it is a different game because shooting on pen and paper is a different aspect then aiming in a game at the parts you want to hit. I will type it one last time. THIS WEAPON WILL NOT REPLACE THE LRM!! I guess nobody in this thread gets it man. If the weapon must be tweaked good or bad it will be. I trust the game in Chris and Paul. In my opinion they have been doing a great job so far.

I'm not saying no to feedback I'm saying that looking overall and adjusting this weapon to remove minimum range or maybe tweaking the attack bracket may cause issues concerning other weapon systems. They will look into and figure something out but I highly doubt they will remove the minimum range.

Edited by corpse256, 29 June 2017 - 08:42 PM.

[Deathpig]

As it stands, this weapon won't replace the LRM, and it won't replace the SRM because it's worse than both of them.

Don't even bother adding it to the game how it's currently designed, because it's freaking useless.

[Tesunie]

corpse256, on 29 June 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

Dude these people can't read between the lines with all this math and crap they type about and they want this particular weapon to be more powerful than it already is. Issue is these players want the ATMs to replace the LRMs. Which it wont.

You apparently don't know me very well then...

For the record, even if ATMs had no minimum range at all, it still wouldn't be replacing my LRMs on many of my builds. Nor my SRMs. Some for flavor, sure. I would see it as an alternative to the other two, not "out classed" by the other two, but different and worth taking as an option. (Same goes for MRMs, which currently could use some help.)

corpse256, on 29 June 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

ATMs are not a boating weapon its a weapon that has to be mix with another weapon. fancy that you have to use other equipment for this weapon to work? 7 tons for 36 damage is really powerful has more power than an ac20 and people still complain? If you are in comp then don't use it. If your a standard player and love boating weapons like missiles then don't use this weapon. You have to mix it. The weapon system alone doesn't allow for you to pack a bunch of launchers and use it. The weapon will not be tuned to your liking because again SKILL(keyword) is required to use this weapon. I'm sorry if you hate that word? Because yes it will have to take SKILL, man there is that word again, to use this weapon system. I'm pretty sure this is a SKILL, oh man it keeps popping up,based game. Even Russ himself said this is a SKILLED, why does that keep happening, base game.

Actually, I find LRMs are also another weapon system that requires to be mixed with other weapons to actually get the most out of it. So ATMs wouldn't be much different from that. Only difference is, my LRMs would currently out class the ATMs in nearly every way except for a 90m (if I've been hearing right) bubble... Does anyone else recall when a "small bubble" for effectiveness for LRMs to fight ECM (which also does a delay on missile lock ons) was also described as "perfectly balanced"? And low and behold, ECM reigned supreme for some time. It was doubled "the best AMS in the game"...

For the record, having to combine equipment for effectiveness... Isn't "skill". If it is, than I've been going off some very different terminology for what classifies as "skill". Knowing how to get effective locks is a skill. Being able to land hits is a skill. Positioning is a skill. Mixing equipment... Not so much of a "skill". Unless you are talking about trying to keep enemy mechs outside a 180m zone with heavy weapons that (by lore) isn't suppose to have a minimum range?

I use LRMs a LOT. I've very good with them. At this time, I wouldn't use ATMs at all in favor if LRMs or SRMs, or even a combo of those missiles. For the same tonnage and crit slot investment, I could actually take both SRMs and LRMs, and get an overall better performance. I'm not asking for ATMs to be "all powerful", but right now they really shouldn't have a hard minimum range.

corpse256, on 29 June 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

SO if you still want this weapon to be abused keep typing away that minimum range should be removed. Why the hell don't we do that for all weapons. Say good bye to IS LRM and clan LRM restrictions and hello boaters. Who ever has the most missiles and least amount of SKILL you can kiss your sweet *** good bye because lets not have a fair game anymore lets just let the clans always win. Great idea why don't you go make your own mech game and show how well you can make ATMs. I'm sorry nobody will play it cause that is the only weapon everyone will ever use? well...have fun.

Not exactly what we've been asking for. Have you actually been reading this thread? We've presented far more than just "remove minimum range". However, a removal of minimum range alone would make this weapon viable. And by remove, we are talking about the hard cap. Changing that to a reduction minimum range is different. If it's going back to a PTS, I wouldn't even mind trying a smaller minimum range (of say, 90mish). But as it stands now... They are a very impractical weapon to use.

Oh... and does it require skill to use missiles? Or not? Your last paragraph and this one seem in confliction on your definition of the term "skill".

corpse256, on 29 June 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

I feel like I'm typing to a wall of people that think they know what a better game they would have if everyone were to missile boat. no offense but the people who want ATM minimum range to be removed have no clue what they are typing about. You say it would balance the game when it wouldn't you still have more powerful weapons than IS and you still complain about the additional heat penalty. I know everyone is passionate about this game but you guys need to look at the other side of things for once. Its never my way or the high way. Chris and Paul are working their butts off to get this in your tool box of weapons and all you can complain about is its not powerful enough when it is the most powerful missile in the game at the moment? WTF?

Complain? Complain would be saying it sucks and giving no reason why. We aren't complaining, we are providing feedback. You know, that thing which is the exact reason why it was released on a PTS... So we could check it out and... say nothing about it? No. So we can provide feedback about how things feel and potential corrections so things can be introduced into the game with as few problems as possible.

Also, many of us actually do know what we are talking about. I've used LRMs for a long time. I'm not looking for a replacement, but right now LRMs are a better choice than ATMs for mid to long range. And SRMs (even SSRMs) are a better choice for close range. I'm not looking for ATMs to be "better", but they should provide some option besides "useless". It should be a different flavor, and it should be a viable option in replacement. It should be a choice of weapon to help better your tactics, skills and desired outcome.

If I every take ATMs, It's because I'm looking for versatility. I'm looking for a weapon system that has some close range punch (maybe not as much as SRMs), but can also do something (though it doesn't have to be as good as LRMs) for mid range. I'm not looking for an "LRM system that does less at long range, less at mid range, and barely exceeds within a 90m band that most mechs can traverse in the time a single volley hits them, if even faster than that".

As I've mentioned before, we aren't looking necessarily for a "hard drop of the minimum range", just the "hard minimum range". Rather that is by removal (which I feel would balance the weapon, or at least I'd be wanting to give it a try), or a scaled minimum range, or even a much shorter minimum range, if not a combo of some of those. It doesn't even need a velocity boost if it lost it's minimum range, and AMS would be a specific effective counter (which would leave SRMs, SSRMs and LRMs as still more viable when in consideration of AMS being used).

corpse256, on 29 June 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

How about we just give all clans Mega Death Cannons so every shot a clan mech takes kills a IS mech in one hit that would just be the best.

They just don't understand what the weapon does thats all they still stuck to the backstory of what the weapon actually does. And guess what thats not going to happen because oh ya thats right its a video game.

If the weapon needs to be tweaked it will be later but for now its as good as your going to get it till weapons pass comes.

No. We aren't looking for a Mega Death Cannon... If I was I'd be asking for a Mech mounted Long Tom, tactical nuke, or super fast Arrow IV systems that always hit.... (Though an Arrow IV system (not super fast that always hits) could be interesting. And if we are on this subject, I wouldn't mind Thunder LRMs either.. if possible.)

Oh... and this is a Public Test Server session... I'm just starting to wonder if you know what that means? Let me help you. Do you recall the PTS for the Skill Tree? You know, the PTS sessions (several of them) that pushed the skill tree release by a couple of patches even, as PGI continued to make corrections based upon "complaining" (I mean, feedback) provided from each PTS session? So... yeah. Things could still change before it is released. If PGI is quick enough about it, they could even do another PTS (or even two) before the new tech hits live. (Probably can't though.)

So no. This isn't "what we are stuck with" or "as good as you're going to get". It can still easily change. Of course, it could also be implemented as we see it here as well, and then changed at a later time. Who knows.

(I apologize now if this sounds harsh. I've got a headache going... So if I sound harsh, it isn't exactly intended.)

[Tesunie]

Monkey Lover, on 29 June 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

They should ramp down like lrms. Basically worthless under 100m but you can do it.

That is always a possibility. I'd be game to try it and see how it feels.

[corpse256]

Duvanor, on 29 June 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

Since you do not understand what a public TEST, yeah that's a hard to understand word, server is for any discussion with you corpse256 seems pointless. This sever is put on to TEST, maybe read that in some dictionary cause it is really hard to understand, the new equipment and then give feedback after the equipment got TESTed (I think I see a pattern here).

All this has nothing to do with some clan guys wanting to have the better toys, by the way. But I am beginning to see where you are coming from. ATM, as it is right now, is mostly a worse version of LRM that can work better at 180-270 meters. What we want is an "ATM" and not "that weapon that is like a bad LRM launcher that is good at 180 to 270 meters". So our feedback, as well as some MathWarrior, is postet so that hopefully PGI takes a look into it. That's what this forum is about. You know, that TEST thing again.

whats that you are still comparing it to LRMs? kidding right? If you think its a worse version of LRMs then don't use it. Its a useful weapon you just keep using your math and figure out what its good for. Oh I figured it out saving you C-bills. If you find it useless don't use it. Trying to get a broad perspective on what the weapon is use for is hard to figure out when all you are using is math and not your brain on how the weapon system works. I figured it out as soon as they talked about it on the townhall and when I used it in public TEST, ya know what the word means. I guess I just figured out the weapon faster than most. And typing to people like you is pointless as well cause all you are looking at is dps and heat per damage and all this other stuff.

So what its not up to par with LRM spam yet but I guess you want it to be. You'd figure that maybe just maybe it will be the next SRM weapon system to take in. Another thing to take in is that it does more damage per missile than the LRM does. The ATM weapon is complex but extending the bracket would not help the weapon cause now you have users will still take LRMs to the field because of the damage drop off. In your case the ATM is doomed from the start. Extending the bracket range will more than likely try to give it an LRM feel. And when that happens the weapon system will lose its characteristics. Okay so lets say we take away Minimum range. Alright now its better than an SRM less missiles more damage. Well whats the point of a SRM build now. Better dps? I guess I don't get what you want the weapon to be. I guess I'm confused. Well you want it to be an MRM? You want it to have more missiles? I don't get it. I though it was suppose to be a in between an LRM and SRM but more damage and required range. But hey I guess you know better than I because I'm pointless.

Seems like I'm seeing people want too much out of one weapon system. I understand changes happen to weapons for a reason but with the recent pass did you see any weapons get a major buff? I only saw tweaks to keep the weapons close. I guess people feel the need that a weapon must be broken first then tweaked later. Just cause you think numbers wise a weapon is better doesn't mean it is. Its on how you use the weapon system and what tactics you apply to it. Oh their is another word Tactic. But again everyone here says I know nothing. So just ignore all my posts then and everyone will have a better game for it.

Other than dropping the heat down something has to give. You can't give something unless you take away something. Simple balance 101. Plus I don't know if Extending the attack bracket will give it better edge, Its already powerful weapon for the tonnage and heat it uses. So what the LRM has the largest attack bracket but that's what the weapon is built for long range. ATM isn't a long range weapon. Its a Medium ranged weapon like Medium Lasers. Like I said I don't know what you want this weapon to be.

Edited by corpse256, 29 June 2017 - 09:31 PM.

[50 50]

Meh.

I thought they were fun.
But like the MRMs, I would like a bit more of a different feel to using them.
At the moment, with the lock on and recycle times etc it feels like an LRM crossed with Streaks.
It would be nice if the weapons functioned a little differently in the way we use them.

Bit like the heavy lasers.
Would be nice to actually have these function as a true beam weapon.

[Tesunie]

corpse256, on 29 June 2017 - 09:13 PM, said:

whats that you are still comparing it to LRMs?

What else do we have to compare it to?


I'll let you know now, when I look at ATMs, I'm not looking for a weapon to replace my LRMs or SRMs. Instead, I am looking for a weapon system that, when I consider taking any missile system, I have to stop and consider... "ahh... Which would be better for my intended role. Do I want SRMs? LRMs? Or maybe ATMs instead? What do I want this mech to do?" Right now, if ATMs where in the game live, I'd be looking at it going "I want to use missiles with this mech. Which do I want to use? SRMs or LRMs? What? There are these things called ATMs? Don't even bother with them, LRMs will be more effective 90% of the time." And this... is the problem I have with them. They aren't effective and they don't seem to have a role to take up. They don't add flavor and something feels seriously off about them.


AKA: LRMs will match or out perform ATMs at every single range band, except for 180-270. So, with the exclusion of a small 90m window of attack, LRMs will out perform ATMs. EVEN WITHIN 180m! And, SRMs will out perform them even out to their max range due to faster velocity, better groupings (especially if Artemis was taken), less weight and AMS will barely affect them. SSRMs? SRMs are better, unless you are light hunting and have trouble hitting light mechs. Even then, in the role of hitting light mechs, SSRMs are still better than ATMs, especially with that minimum range. And, for comparable weight and crits, SSRMs have typically better overall stats and performance, though they do spread damage a bit more.

So, universally, there would be no reason to take an ATM system over an LRM system right now, even for close range. That's not a very good balancing position to start with. It's not even equal to SRMs or SSRMs. So, universally, it has no place in the game. Everything it can do, literally LRMs can do as well if not better, including when things get up close. (Face it, even a tiny bit of damage is better than completely no damage.)


Now, if there is something else I'm suppose to compare ATMs to, let me know. Right now, I've got nothing else I can compare it to. I can't even call it "a different flavor", as it isn't even that. At least I can say the differences between IS LRMs and C LRMs are different flavors, with rarely one being a superior choice over the other.

[Jep Jorgensson]

The min range has to go altogether. Frankly, all you LRM haters out there complaining about LRM boats standing in the back like "cowards" and "leeching" target locks and "stealing" kills should be the loudest ones calling for the min range on ATM's to be removed. Reason being, if ATM's adhere to the Lore and get their min range removed, then that means they will be doing full damage face-to-face and can only get locks if they have LOS. Which means that any good pilot with ATM's will be either right next to or right behind the front-line brawlers since that is the range where they will do the most damage. No more backfield firing, not if they really know what they are doing anyway. I go into greater detail here.

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 29 June 2017 - 10:32 PM.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

ATM has bigger damage than SRM. The minium range is good mechanic as it provides skill factor to the weapon.But the optimal range window of 90 meters seem really thight.

I like the system overall, how it's skill dependant, how it's rather useless over mid range(less damage and less ammo per ton to LRMs). The rather minimal trajectory arching seems borderline. It's difficult to imagine enemies to move in the open where it works best. It should arch little bit more, but it's good it doesn't arch too much as LRMs.

ATMs should be go-to weapon of Clan missile boats, and mid range hybrids. SRMs should be for brawlers and one weapon type mechs, and LRMs for people who want to keep long range. I don't see much overlap with streaks as streaks have much lower DPS than SRM.

Little bit tweaking and it's very fine weapon system.

[Durnaxe]

I don't get the argument for keeping the minimum range.
So far PGI has shown they like to keep to TT values as much as possible. Which means ATM's have no minimum range (since we cant switch ammo types).
Also with how sloooooow the damn missiles move, I don't mind the spread for balance reasons, I don't see why not have a no minimum range when even a single AMS wrecks the volley.

[Rusharn]

If the velocity, spread and current hit points per missile remain the same then the Minimum range needs to be eliminated. The ATM's suffer all the hard counters that LRM's suffer, while being less ammo efficient, hotter and heavier. If they are to have any place in the game, much less compete with MRM's, the minimum range needs to be removed allowing the 3 damage at close range to offset their vulnerability to LAMS and AMS systems.

Edited by Rusharn, 30 June 2017 - 08:42 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Monkey Lover, on 29 June 2017 - 08:31 PM, said:

They should ramp down like lrms. Basically worthless under 100m but you can do it.

I'd be totally fine with them ramping down in damage exactly like cLRM's do under 180m.

The sudden zero damage, however, makes them really worthless even in their "ideal" 90m range band. That 90m is so small, covered so very quickly even by slow mechs, that to get to where your ATM's are actually "good" you're basically never getting more than a single volley off - target advances just a tiny bit, and suddenly they're useless. He backs off a tiny bit, and suddenly they're poor LRM's.

On paper, ATM's look really strong. In practice, they're utterly garbage.

Because I call total BS on anyone - even very strong players - maintaining that 180-270m gap against a moderately competent player. Anyones who's not a total potato will simply move a teeny bit forwards or back and that's that.

I say this as a player who runs a silly (but wierdly effective) Mad Dog with 6xLRM5 and 5xERSL. I use that build entirely at close range - 200ish meters, never long range LRM herfing. It's extremely effective there, but even despite my best efforts in a fairly agile mech, people often close inside 180m or move further away to at least get away from the lasers, as the combination of the lasers and LRM's outputs over 20dps sustainably.

I'd *never* consider putting ATM's on that build, because losing ALL missile damage when things get close, not being able to effectively arc over cover/friendlies in a brawl, and having more heat, less ammo per ton, and longer cooldowns would make it worse at all ranges....


... Which is, of course, the problem.

It's not that SRM's are better at short range, LRM's are better at long range....

LRM's are better weapons at short range than ATM's are. They're better at long range, and mid range too. ATM's are only better in that incredibly tiny window. That window that even an Atlas can cross in the time it takes you to get a lock.

Edited by Wintersdark, 29 June 2017 - 11:22 PM.

[Vladosteron]

IMHO to get the ATMs work in a proper "workable" way they need:

1. Min Range Reduction to 90 Meters, 180 Meters just makes them way inferior to SRMs
2. Velocity increase to about 240-300 m/s because they are supposed to be more "direct-fire" weapons than LRMs
3. No Lock-On without LOS, but tighter Spread. (It has in-build Artemis after all)
4. Flat, almost non Ballistic flypattern
This should make it feelable different from LRMs and SSRMs, while it can do all the misslejobs ok, without being a true alternative to the other ones.

All this has been said a couple of times in this thread, but for Feedback purposes.(I hope someone reads this dear PGI)

[AngrySpartan]

Oh man, people just refuse to see arguments and keep complaining "ATMs will outperform LRMS!!!" (which is just hilarious )

You can't even call them ATMs until minimum range will be removed. It's agains the nature of ATM as a flexible weapon system. Currently they are glorified LRM's maybe, but definetely not ATMs. With the same logic I can put this into the game and call it a Gauss rifle or HAG or Ultra20 or whatever:

Edited by AngrySpartan, 29 June 2017 - 11:34 PM.

[corpse256]

50 50, on 29 June 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

Got to say that when I gave the ATMs a test out with a friend in the private lobby last night, I could have sworn they had a firing arc.

Anyway, to the points at hand.

It provides the versatility but you could say it is not better than the LRMs or SRMs when compared at those ranges.

What I would like to see is some different functionality with the weapons in the way we use them.
What if they functioned as a guided missile?
That is, direct fire and will move towards the targeting reticule.
Would be different.

well they do have a firing arc but the issue is that now your going to make them SSRMs but without required lock. I like the laser targeting idea but I don't know if at this point that is possible to implement. I feel would make the weapon harder to use but be a good reward to give critical hits in success of use and range. Maybe to fix the major issue with the ATMs is to give it a Higher cit chance and 90m bracket and lower those chances at longer ranges. Unless that is what they have now. But not so much that it gives it LBX crit hits which are very powerful.

Edited by corpse256, 29 June 2017 - 11:43 PM.