677 replies to this topic

[AngrySpartan]

Jep Jorgensson, on 30 June 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

I did with one of my guys. My findings are here.

Thank you for sharing, hilarious story))

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 June 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

First, I don't like minimum range on ATMs (for that matter I don't like minimum range period)

Found single thing we could agree on. Minimum range mechanic is a complete bullXXXt. In fact I believe it should be dropped at all for clan LRMs and replaced with linear 180(90)-0 damage reduction for IS LRMs and PPCs.

[MischiefSC]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 June 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

It would even be okay to be better than LRMs at long range or better at short range then SRMs, because it is a much heavier weapon. The question will be how much damage/DPS per ton you get out of the different options, taking into account heat and ammo requirements.

SRMs are very light compared to ATMs, and still pack a nasty punch.
I could totally see a minimum range of 90m be a way to give the SRM a bit more of an edge here, but the current minimum range is not really practicl.

In regards to LRMs, I think there isn't really a big contest - the LRMs flight trajectory is just so much better for long range combat, it will be able to clear a lot of cover (including allies) that would block an ATM. And of course, the damage drop off will make the LRM be more damaging at the longer range. (Though I still wouldn't mind lowering the ATM max range to below that of the LRM.)

No it's not okay because tonnage and heat are irrelevant in the context of 'how much damage are you actually doing for the tonnage you've got and heat you're generating'. If I can do more damage in a brawl with ATMs than SRMs and still do crushing damage at 300, 400m with ATMs then I'll take them over SRMs because I can stack them with ballistics or lasers and get use of my whole weapon loadout at 2x or 3x the range I can with just SRMs. This relegates SRMs to only dedicated point blank brawlers who will be at a disadvantage against anyone taking energy/ballistics + ATMs, because that person can shoot you repeatedly before you close.

It's the same reason 3xUAC5 > 2x AC20. Sure, AC20 packs a great punch up close but the ability to rip someone up at mid to long range before you close and then still get good use of your weapon is better overall.

ATMs need to be worse at brawling than SRMs for damage and worse at long range than LRMs but still useful at both and viable when used with direct fire. That would make them a great, useful weapon that doesn't invalidate either.

davoodoo, on 30 June 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

However its not, its worse than counterparts at every range and when it comes to flexibility streaks are better.

It doesnt work as indirect fire weapon because of low trajectory and lower dmg.
It kinds works as direct fire medium range weapon, but then streaks are just better dmg/ton
It doesnt work as short range weapon because minimum range which isnt problem for streaks and even if it had 0 minimum range srms can do more dmg per ton.

At brawl even if youre terrible shot lock is hindrance, not help. You need to face enemy to get lock and youll quickly lose it again as you twist resulting in dps loss furthering favoring unguided srms.

LRMs are a joke outside of QP and playing against bads. Indirect fire is not a 'perk', it's a trap to get someone to leave their teammates to get focused.

Streaks are **** outside of killing lights because they spread damage randomly. ATMs do not. Sure, they spread, in the same way LBX or even lasers spread. Streaks tracking works like the insanely long burn time on Clan Heavy Lasers - yes, the damage looks great but it's largely worthless due to the other mechanics.

Get target retention, plus at point blank with a good velocity you can just dumfire ATMs with no minimum range.

AC20 does more damage for a single shot for the tonnage than 2xUAC5s. 2xUAC5s, or even AC5s, are however a better choice because better range means more opportunities to do that damage which equals more total damage output. Distance is time and time is damage.

I get that ATMs should do some sort of damage up close. I'm saying they need to do 1 point inside 180m. Still useful, just clearly inferior for brawling vs SRMs. If they're doing 3 pts per missile and I can puke up over 100 damage at point blank with most heavies using them PLUS do 2pts per missile at 500m, with a lock, then they're superior to SRMs.

[Andi Nagasia]

MischiefSC, on 30 June 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

I get that ATMs should do some sort of damage up close. I'm saying they need to do 1 point inside 180m. Still useful, just clearly inferior for brawling vs SRMs. If they're doing 3 pts per missile and I can puke up over 100 damage at point blank with most heavies using them PLUS do 2pts per missile at 500m, with a lock, then they're superior to SRMs.

if this were the case then personally just give me the STD ATM Ammo,
120m-600m with SRM like Ammo Stats(2Damage, 400m Velocity, 2Health, 100Ammo/Ton)
(Min Range based on Most weapons(30x4)(Max Range based on LRM & ATM Max Ranges(40x15)

[davoodoo]

MischiefSC, on 30 June 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

LRMs are a joke outside of QP and playing against bads. Indirect fire is not a 'perk', it's a trap to get someone to leave their teammates to get focused.

Streaks are **** outside of killing lights because they spread damage randomly. ATMs do not. Sure, they spread, in the same way LBX or even lasers spread. Streaks tracking works like the insanely long burn time on Clan Heavy Lasers - yes, the damage looks great but it's largely worthless due to the other mechanics.

Get target retention, plus at point blank with a good velocity you can just dumfire ATMs with no minimum range.

AC20 does more damage for a single shot for the tonnage than 2xUAC5s. 2xUAC5s, or even AC5s, are however a better choice because better range means more opportunities to do that damage which equals more total damage output. Distance is time and time is damage.

I get that ATMs should do some sort of damage up close. I'm saying they need to do 1 point inside 180m. Still useful, just clearly inferior for brawling vs SRMs. If they're doing 3 pts per missile and I can puke up over 100 damage at point blank with most heavies using them PLUS do 2pts per missile at 500m, with a lock, then they're superior to SRMs.

At direct fire they suck so yeah indirect fire is their niche.

I give you that, atms focus their damage more...on legs...

Also dumbfire?? 5.2 spread dude... theres a reason why everyone and their dog packs artemis on csrm and you tell me its effective weapon with spread of non artemis csrm6?

They are better choice on ballistic boats because cooldown and 2 uac5 do 20 dmg, same as ac20, though theyll jam occasionally, however if you pack few of them you can put some decent holes in enemy at range.
However on brawling mechs which will get within 300m ac20 is far superior, way less facetime damage focused on place, heaven.
Kgc with 4 uac5 is fire support mech, while atlas with 1 ac20 and 4 srm6 is brawler both are decent builds.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 June 2017 - 12:00 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AngrySpartan, on 30 June 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

ATMs (without minimum) can deal more damage than SRMs? On paper - yes. In the field, hell no.
1. You'll barely will be able to match the SRM DPS with ATMs. e.g Mad Dog - 6 SRM6+A (that SRM boat you think can't work at it's optimal range) - 72 alpha every 4 seconds. ATMs (4ATM6+2ATM3) - 90 alpha every 5 seconds.

Did I say the Mad Dog was one of those mechs that couldn't? No, stop assuming things. The Mad Dog has one of the best convergences with regards to SRMs that probably rivals the ASN-23 and GRF-3M. That said, many of the other SRM boats including one of the old typical brawlers the SRMmoner have terrible convergence and thus are very hard to use at a longer range (let alone at short on some occasions).

AngrySpartan, on 30 June 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

2. There is damage and there is effective damage. 36 SRMs hitting single side torso is scary.

Very rarely will you see let alone use a mech that can plant 36 SRMs into a single side torso. The Mad Dog is probably the only one and it is too fragile to realistically use.

AngrySpartan, on 30 June 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

3. Closing the distance with SRMs isn't difficult at all. It's difficult to take down more than a single mech with you though.

Maybe in PUG queue, but in an environment where people are equally coordinated? Naw, Dual Gauss/Dual ERPPC Night Gyrs, MAD-IIC/SVN/WHK spam can stop brawls dead in their tracks, I mean even mid-range pushes have trouble on maps, and you think SRMs are gonna be better? Lol please.

AngrySpartan, on 30 June 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

4. Center mass, center mass, etc. Just go and kill assault mech solo with LRMs. Than get back here and say how much ammo has you spend? ATMs do more damage but they have twice less ammo than LRMs, so again - you don't want to waste them when they do only 1 or 2 damage.

Depends on the assault. Don't get me wrong, LRMs are still not the most efficient weapon for doing effective damage, but then again, dakka boats didn't use to be either, but they pumped out SO much damage, that they overcame all that.

AngrySpartan, on 30 June 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

BTW. SFE Griffin 3M and Centurions says hello! And IS has LFE now.

Both of those are bad. Again, sword and board died a long time ago, just because the IS has LFE doesn't make them suddenly good (especially the GRF-3M which has to run a STD still to run 4 ASRM6). SRM brawling is still pretty dead, the killing of cSPLs didn't bring it back.

davoodoo, on 30 June 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

However on brawling mechs which will get within 300m ac20 is far superior, way less facetime damage focused on place, heaven.
Kgc with 4 uac5 is fire support mech, while atlas with 1 ac20 and 4 srm6 is brawler both are decent builds.

The AC20 is a pretty crappy brawling weapon, the reason the Atlas runs it is because it does two things:

• Avoids ghost heat.
  
• The Atlas can't mount another battery of ASRM6s.

[Deathpig]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 June 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

Maybe in PUG queue, but in an environment where people are equally coordinated? Naw, Dual Gauss/Dual ERPPC Night Gyrs, MAD-IIC/SVN/WHK spam can stop brawls dead in their tracks, I mean even mid-range pushes have trouble on maps, and you think SRMs are gonna be better? Lol please.

Are you saying that in coordinated play having a weapon that has tiny range and large face time is a huge detriment because of the current PPFLD meta?

Gosh, sounds like you're saying that even with no minimum range, ATMs would still be pretty awful.

Other people seem to believe that a 70 heat alpha strike of spread damage in a brawl (that you're saying doesn't exist) would completely destroy the game.

Can we all just settle on one opposing argument here?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathpig, on 30 June 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

Are you saying that in coordinated play having a weapon that has tiny range and large face time is a huge detriment because of the current PPFLD meta?

ATMs don't have tiny range, and it's not like you can't rotate damage (the lack of radar dep helps keep that tracking while rotating damage). Remember, dakka pushes were a thing too and those had a lot of face time and handled the laser vomit meta just fine. It's almost like you are oversimplifying things.......

[AngrySpartan]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 June 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

Did I say the Mad Dog was one of those mechs that couldn't? No, stop assuming things.

I will, at the moment you'll start bringing arguments and counterarguments, numbers if you prefer.

Cause so far I can see only irrelevant comparisons and word fencing (e.g. arguing about brawling in comp play and their viability against PPC/Gauss meta in ATM topic, makes a lot of sense, aha).

[Deathpig]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 June 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

ATMs don't have tiny range, and it's not like you can't rotate damage (the lack of radar dep helps keep that tracking while rotating damage). Remember, dakka pushes were a thing too and those had a lot of face time and handled the laser vomit meta just fine. It's almost like you are oversimplifying things.......

It ABSOLUTELY has tiny range. Dakka pushes weren't limited to 270 meters and countered by AMS and slow travel time.

Yes, ATMs can shoot past 270, but if that's what you're using them for then you'd a moron because LRMs are flat out better (by tonnage/space/heat ratios) 271m+.

So yes, I am simplifying things because there's only one area where ATMs actually raise the QUESTION if they are any good, and that's inside the area they do 3 damage per missile. Outside of that area, they are trash.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathpig, on 30 June 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

It ABSOLUTELY has tiny range. Dakka pushes weren't limited to 270 meters and countered by AMS and slow travel time.

Yes, ATMs can shoot past 270, but if that's what you're using them for then you'd a moron because LRMs are flat out better (by tonnage/space/heat ratios) 271m+.

Just because LRMs are better outside of 270 (barely, remember you are comparing to LRMs WITH Artemis), doesn't mean that damage doesn't matter. ATMs HAVE to be worse than specialty weapons, but that doesn't mean their flexibility is somehow invalid.....slow travel time isn't a problem because they have the same travel time as LRMs, and inside 500m that's generally acceptable. The AMS thing is concerning, an AMS should have a harder time taking down an ATM12 salvo, more so than an LRM20.

Either way, the scenario is using them in a mid-range push like you would LPL/ML boats of old or dakka (which generally had an effective range of 600m or so). At 300-600 or so, sure cLRMs might be better (barely), but once you finally close, you are doing practically SRM levels of damage. Having that level of power on a push weapon is concerning.

Either the contrast between the ends should be reduced that way we ensure that they never compete with SRMs at short range (so 2.5 per missile max, but 1.5 per missile at extended range) or separate them like MW4 did so they can be balanced appropriately without killing the roles of the other ammo types.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 June 2017 - 12:47 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

supposedly the Min Range on ATMs being reduced to 120m today,
i suggest we all get on and test out the new Ranges,
(Patch notes said to be coming shortly)

Please test the new Ranges and Revote, Thank you,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 30 June 2017 - 12:52 PM.

[AngrySpartan]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 June 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Just because LRMs are better outside of 270 (barely, remember you are comparing to LRMs WITH Artemis), doesn't mean that damage doesn't matter. ATMs HAVE to be worse than specialty weapons, but that doesn't mean their flexibility is somehow invalid.....slow travel time isn't a problem because they have the same travel time as LRMs, and inside 500m that's generally acceptable. The AMS thing is concerning, an AMS should have a harder time taking down an ATM12 salvo, more so than an LRM20.

Either way, the scenario is using them in a mid-range push like you would LPL/ML boats of old or dakka (which generally had an effective range of 600m or so). At 300-600 or so, sure cLRMs might be better (barely), but once you finally close, you are doing practically SRM levels of damage. Having that level of power on a push weapon is concerning.

Either the contrast between the ends should be reduced that way we ensure that they never compete with SRMs at short range (so 2.5 per missile max, but 1.5 per missile at extended range) or separate them like MW4 did so they can be balanced appropriately without killing the roles of the other ammo types.

It's been said why ATMs can't overshadow SRMs at what SRMs do best. It's been said why ATMs can't overshadow LRMs at what little they can do best.

Read: ATMs will never compete with other missiles at what they do best! They just give you some capabilities where other missiles can do nothing. It's the feature of a wepon - flexibility! And it can't be flexible as long as it acts as LRMs with different tonnage/damage ratios.

And stop comparing them to other weapon types finally.

Andi Nagasia, on 30 June 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

supposedly the Min Range on ATMs being reduced to 120m today,
i suggest we all get on and test out the new Ranges,
(Patch notes said to be coming shortly)

Please test the new Ranges and Revote, Thank you,

Changes nothing. As long as there is a magic point of Zero damage, ATMs are still irrelevant. They are still glorified LRMs.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 30 June 2017 - 12:59 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AngrySpartan, on 30 June 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

Read: ATMs will never compete with other missiles at what they do best! They just give you some capabilities where other missiles can do nothing.

And the bolded part is incredibly important, because the other missiles are BARELY more effective at what they do best than ATMs. It's what allows ATMs to be great push weapons, if they lose the min range that is. The only time SRMs will be seen is pretty much when you can always force the brawl (like MRBC drop 1) and even then it will be only used on lights pretty much (because medium SRM boats have troubles).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 June 2017 - 01:02 PM.

[Deathpig]

And if they have the minimum range, they won't be used ever... because you could more easily use LRMs (less weight, less space, less heat, more ammo) to 'push' as you're describing.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathpig, on 30 June 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

And if they have the minimum range, they won't be used ever... because you could more easily use LRMs (less weight, less space, less heat, more ammo) to 'push' as you're describing.

I don't like the min range concept (I voted yes to remove the min range, so not sure why you are bringing it up like I defend it), so I would love for it to be done away with as a whole (that includes LRMs and PPCs), that said, I don't like the idea of just leaving them as is just minus min range.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 June 2017 - 01:06 PM.

[AngrySpartan]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 June 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

And the bolded part is incredibly important, because the other missiles are BARELY more effective at what they do best than ATMs. It's what allows ATMs to be great push weapons, if they lose the min range that is. The only time SRMs will be seen is pretty much when you can always force the brawl (like MRBC drop 1) and even then it will be only used on lights pretty much (because medium SRM boats have troubles).

Comp play comparisons again? Really? It's a compete different beast, so stop making examples from the area 90% of the layers will never try.

First: there are weapons that can be used on multiple ranges already, PPC/Gauss, Dakka, laservom, etc. And SRMs are still there somehow! ATMs will be just another weapon of that type, only with bigger emphasize on CQC. Like SnPPC wouldn't invalidate normal PPC.
Second, even after removing ATM minimum range there are ways to tweak them to be balanced. However if minimum range will be kept...we'll receive another glorified LRM weapon, exactly "what people want" - more LRMs!

[Deathpig]

I 100% agree with you on minimum range. I don't understand why IS LRMs/PPCs have one (it's not even TT consistent... wtf? They should all lose damage as you move in).

I feel like ECM/AMS/LoS/Stealh Armor (if they make it usable) vulnerability along with the heat/weight/space/ammo comparison makes up for the fact that the system is almost as good as LRMs inside 500m and comparable to SRMs (which share NONE of those aforementioned limitations) in short range.

Edit: Note, I also feel like ATMs should have flat trajectory. They should NOT be able to 'indirect' fire on things.

Edited by Deathpig, 30 June 2017 - 01:13 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AngrySpartan, on 30 June 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

First: there are weapons that can be used on multiple ranges already, PPC/Gauss, Dakka, laservom, etc. And SRMs are still there somehow!

Sure are, but not all of those are relevant within the meta. I mean, remember part of the reason the Gauss got charge in the first place? Cuz it was too strong at both long AND short range (despite having slightly worse DPS than an AC20 at short range)? Same thing should be the case for ATMs at too much of a range.

AngrySpartan, on 30 June 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

ATMs will be just another weapon of that type, only with bigger emphasize on CQC. Like SnPPC wouldn't invalidate normal PPC.

SNPPC really isn't a good example because there isn't a reason to use it period unless you are expecting things to get within 90m often (though the fact that is a concern is stupid in the first place).

AngrySpartan, on 30 June 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

Second, even after removing ATM minimum range there are ways to tweak them to be balanced.

All I'm saying is we should do that now rather than wait because the idea that it has that much power at short and mid range is silly. Never did I say they couldn't be tweaked, only using my knowledge of how the game is played to predict that it is a bad idea to leave as is and just remove min range.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 June 2017 - 01:34 PM.

[AngrySpartan]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 June 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

All I'm saying is we should do that now rather than wait because the idea that it has that much power at short and mid range is silly. Never did I say they couldn't be tweaked, only using my knowledge of how the game is played to predict that it is a bad idea to leave as is and just remove min range.

There is still 120m minimum and there is no way we can try ATMs against SRMs or LRMs until it will be removed. Besides:
Flexibility (no minimum) is what makes them unique! Selling LRMs under ATM banner is just gross...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

AngrySpartan, on 30 June 2017 - 01:39 PM, said:

Flexibility (no minimum) is what makes them unique! Selling LRMs under ATM banner is just gross...

Flexibility is fine, but being too powerful at that flexibility is a dangerous thing.