677 replies to this topic

[AngrySpartan]

Min range for ATMs is a nonsense at the first place. In TT It's a close range weapon first of all, everything else is just a nice little bonus. That's a bread and butter for brawlers with an added ability of selfdefense at ranges beyond ATM HE-ammo.

In fact minimum range mechanins for any weapon in MWO makes no sense from any point of view (somehow at 90m PPC does no damage and does it all at 91? Whaaat?). IMHO it should be removed from clan LRMs and IS PPC and LRMs should have 180 (90) - 0m gradual damage reduction (similar to clan LRMs now).

[Duvanor]

corpse256, on 29 June 2017 - 12:31 AM, said:

see what people don't realize is that ATM12s are insanely powerful at proper range. Also somewhat outside they are better to take than LRMs. Few reason why you would take LRMs over ATMs as mentioned above this post your ammo is very short with this weapon system so requiring more tonnage to take a powerful missile system is going to have to be a choice. Minimum range shouldn't be removed then you'll have everyone in the whole game just taking this weapon and abusing it. Plus that would take the skill out of the use of the weapon. This weapon system should be high risk high reward weapon. Just like the rocket pods, high risk high reward. Same with the heavy lasers. You decide to take more fire power it should take more skill to use those weapons and more tonnage.

Please read my 4th post in this thread https://mwomercs.com...no-reduced-yes/ and than tell me why exactly ATMs are better than LRMs. Especially considering that ATMs are more prone to AMS.

Edited by Duvanor, 29 June 2017 - 01:20 AM.

[AngrySpartan]

Duvanor, on 29 June 2017 - 01:18 AM, said:

Please read my 4th post in this thread https://mwomercs.com...no-reduced-yes/ and than tell me why exactly ATMs are better than LRMs. Especially considering that ATMs are more prone to AMS.

Exactly, with that ammo count and weight requirements there are no situation you would like to use ATMs over LRMs beyond 3DMG/missile range. With minimum range in place that's only 180-270m and weapon with 90m effective range is just a garbage.

Can you imagine IS PPC with 90-180m range? Same with ATMs.

[Yar0Wind]

In the current form ATM are not useful. For CQC, I will still choose SRM, because they are lighter. For the long range - LRM, because their range is higher. ATM could become effective in mid-range, but 90 meters effective range?! Seriously, everyone who has ever used LRM on max range knows, that any target passes this distance in part of a second.

Sorry for Google Translate ^--^

[Odhinnson]

corpse256, on 29 June 2017 - 12:31 AM, said:

see what people don't realize is that ATM12s are insanely powerful at proper range. Also somewhat outside they are better to take than LRMs. Few reason why you would take LRMs over ATMs as mentioned above this post your ammo is very short with this weapon system so requiring more tonnage to take a powerful missile system is going to have to be a choice. Minimum range shouldn't be removed then you'll have everyone in the whole game just taking this weapon and abusing it. Plus that would take the skill out of the use of the weapon. This weapon system should be high risk high reward weapon. Just like the rocket pods, high risk high reward. Same with the heavy lasers. You decide to take more fire power it should take more skill to use those weapons and more tonnage.

Do you listen to yourself when you speak? or as appropriate to this medium, do you read what you type before you click post? no, the minimum rage is ludicrous, the effective damage for all of the reasons explained above IS a balancing factor, what you're doing by giving it a minimum range is ensuring it never sees combat outside of trolling/idiocy/inexperience, no, it is not about "skill" it is about viability, it's not that they're "useless" it's that at every range bracket right now, as they stand, The ATMs are outclassed by every other Missile Type available to clanners, Quiaff?

[Nomad One]

ATMs either need the minimum range completely removed, or reduced to 90 meters and the spread reduced drastically.

The weapon system requires a lock, but with clan LRM spread patterns this means a few of those precious missiles can actually MISS their target, even if said target is stationary!

Honestly I'd prefer to reduce minimum range to 90m, with a clan LRM "rapid damage dropoff" in that 1m-90m window, and the spread reduced to IS SRM values. The weapon system is already vulnerable against a single AMS as it is, multiple AMS systems on the field will ensure this weapon won't be able to deliver even half of its payload.

[SmokinDave73]

90 meter min range would be a good start.

[Nesutizale]

Another drawback why the minimal range should be taken out is that against AMS its pretty damn useless at range.
I tested it with a friend. 4x6ATM vs 3 AMS...after 4 full salvos one missle hit.

Thats nothing. So when the system is allready struggleing with AMS on range, let the ATM at least be usefull at close range.

[ProfessorD]

Fixing ATMs.

Step 1: Flat trajectory.

Step 2: No minimum range.

Then PGI can come back to us and we can talk about tweaking spread, velocity, cooldown, ghost heat, and ammo/ton. But first, we need to make this weapon system different from LRMs.

[AngrySpartan]

SmokinDave73, on 29 June 2017 - 06:20 AM, said:

90 meter min range would be a good start.

Hardly a good start. ATMs are already matched or outclassed by SRMs at >270 meters because of ammo count, weight, cooldowns, AMS vulnerability, weapon trajectories, ECM jamming, velocity, etc.

For those who still think the opposite:
___________________ Weight/ Spread / DMG / Heat / CD / DPS / Velocity / Ammo count
SRM6+A:_____________ 2,5 /4(5-20%)_/__12 / 4 / 4 / 3 / 400 / 100
ATM6:________________3,5 /___4,2___/ 18 / 4,5 / 5 / 4 / 160 / 72
2 ATM3s:_______________3 /___4,2___/ 18 / 4 / 4 / 4,5 / 160 / 72

ATMs has no decisive advantages over SRMs!
In fact Damage/DPS is the only advantage ATMs have over SRMs and you have to pay for it with 0,5-1t more for the launcher and at least another half ton of ammo per 6 tubes. And AMS weakness on top of that which makes perceived range advantage a joke.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 30 June 2017 - 04:52 AM.

[Lynxx]

Without the minimum range ATM outperforme STREAK-SRM and SRM in DMG, DPS, DPH even CD (STREAK-SRM-6 6s, ATM-6 only 5s). Downside would be, slower missle speed, less ammo /t, and a little more t (SRM6 with 3t to ATM-6 with 3.5t) so no real downside.

A mech that can fit a STREAK-SRM-6 would simply switch it to a ATM-6. 0.5t more for the launcher.
You switch the 200dmg/t ammo to 216dmg/t. On top you get a better alpha strike.

3 ATM-6 are able to do 54dmg / volley. 3 STREAK-SRM-6 get 'only' up to 36.

Edited by Lynxx, 29 June 2017 - 07:02 AM.

[Duvanor]

Lynxx, on 29 June 2017 - 06:50 AM, said:

Without the minimum range ATM outperforme STREAK-SRM and SRM in DMG, DPS, DPH even CD (STREAK-SRM-6 6s, ATM-9 only 5s). Downside would be, slower missle speed, less ammo /t, and a little more t (SRM6 with 4t to ATM-9 with 4.5t) so no real downside.

Would you please compare that ATM 9 to a cSRM6? That would be 5t ATM9 compared to 3 cSRM6 at 4,5t. ATM9 deals 27 damage at optimal range vs 3 cSRM6 dealing 36 per salvo. Oh and the SRM6s have 1 second less cooldown and a projectile speed of 400 compared to the ATMs 160, so AMS has less time to react.

[AngrySpartan]

Lynxx, on 29 June 2017 - 06:50 AM, said:

Without the minimum range ATM outperforme STREAK-SRM and SRM in DMG, DPS, DPH even CD (STREAK-SRM-6 6s, ATM-9 only 5s). Downside would be, slower missle speed, less ammo /t, and a little more t (SRM6 with 4t to ATM-9 with 4.5t) so no real downside.

1. SRM6+A - 2,5t, StreakSRM6-3t.
2. Streaks has waaay better tracking and velocity (230 vs.160) which makes them almost guarantee to hit.
3. Streaks are almost invincible to AMS cause more hp/missile
4. Streaks do 2dmg/missile up to 370m, thus ATMs lose their single advantage at 270+ meters.
For everything else - see my post above yours.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 29 June 2017 - 07:01 AM.

[Lynxx]

Duvanor, on 29 June 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

Would you please compare that ATM 9 to a cSRM6? [..]

Sorry did a mistake in my pref. post. was reading wrong line in my excel sheet.
ATM and STREAK are guided, so i compared them, not the unguided SRM.

[Wintersdark]

corpse256, on 29 June 2017 - 12:31 AM, said:

see what people don't realize is that ATM12s are insanely powerful at proper range. Also somewhat outside they are better to take than LRMs. Few reason why you would take LRMs over ATMs as mentioned above this post your ammo is very short with this weapon system so requiring more tonnage to take a powerful missile system is going to have to be a choice. Minimum range shouldn't be removed then you'll have everyone in the whole game just taking this weapon and abusing it. Plus that would take the skill out of the use of the weapon. This weapon system should be high risk high reward weapon. Just like the rocket pods, high risk high reward. Same with the heavy lasers. You decide to take more fire power it should take more skill to use those weapons and more tonnage.

What? In practice, the only time ATM's are more powerful than LRM's is 180m-270m. That's an EXTREMELY limited range. Your opponent needs to close 90m to make your very powerful weapon garbage.

But what makes this practically impossible to actually use is lock times. Even without ECM, it takes a long time to lock. With LRM's, this isn't as bad because they function at closer ranges (still doing damage at 179m) AND longer ranges, but because outside of potatotier players don't tend to just stand still, they're always coming closer or moving away.

As the ATM's are less effective than LRM's everywhere other than a 90m range band, you're better off taking LRM's all the time. And LRM's are bad!

Long range build? LRM's. Short range build? SRM's. Mid range build? LRM's. Flexible multirange build? LRM's.

90m is simply way to tight a range band.

[Andi Nagasia]

AngrySpartan, on 29 June 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

1. SRM6+A - 2,5t, StreakSRM6-3t.
2. Streaks has waaay better tracking and velocity (230 vs.160) which makes them almost guarantee to hit.
3. Streaks are almost invincible to AMS cause more hp/missile
4. Streaks do 2dmg/missile up to 370m, thus ATMs lose their single advantage at 270+ meters.
For everything else - see my post above yours.

dont forget Spread, which ATMs are locked to 4.2 & 5.2, and which cant be reduced,
so a LRMs would be much more effective at any time past 180-270(ATM9 vs LRM20+A)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 29 June 2017 - 07:32 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Put differently: Take any mech you want, any mech. I'll take LRM's, you can take ATM's. I will bet a mechpack I'll win in every single battle, effortlessly. Even if I agree to dance around at ~200m, it's trivial for me to move in to 170 when you're looking to fire, or out to 280. Either way, my weapons are purely better - at 280m. ATM's are simply garbage

And when LRM's are outclassing a weapon, there's a problem.

[AngrySpartan]

Wintersdark, on 29 June 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

And when LRM's are outclassing a weapon, there's a problem.

Can we make a huge banner with these words and put it to PGIs gamedesigner's office!!!

Edited by AngrySpartan, 29 June 2017 - 07:16 AM.

[Duvanor]

Lynxx, on 29 June 2017 - 07:04 AM, said:

Sorry did a mistake in my pref. post. was reading wrong line in my excel sheet.
ATM and STREAK are guided, so i compared them, not the unguided SRM.

No problem, mistakes happen.

But look, Streaks are guided in a way that makes every missile hit. ATMs on the other hand are all over the place. That means you won't get your 27 damage of a ATM9 and even less if the target or someone near the target has AMS. 3 cSSRM4 would come at 6 tons compared to ATM9s 5. A bit more heat, less slots, one ton more weight and 0,5s less cooldown. But 24 damage without missiles missing the target unless something is between target and shooter and AMS has nearly no effect. And from 270m to 360m that ATM9 does 18 damage, the 3 cSSRM4s still deal 24.

At more than 360m those streaks are useless of course and that's what makes ATMs good in theory. SRMs are better at short range, LRMs are better at long range, ATM should be able to work on every range. But as it is now, they can not do that and so they suck.

Edited by Duvanor, 29 June 2017 - 07:23 AM.

[JadePanther]

they need a min range reduction.. lets say uhhh 90m... cause having only a 90m window to get full damage is really really lame... this would at least give a 180m window for full dmg.. doesnt that seem more fair..