31 replies to this topic

[Stridercal]

I was wondering how PGI would handle snubbie PPCs... and i see it's just a slightly lighter PPC with **** range.

Which is mostly true. But at the same time, they are supposed to offer awesome short range ability.

SUGGESTION: keep the range spec as they are now, but drastically increase the velocity in order to simulate the easy of use.

Edited by Stridercal, 29 June 2017 - 08:11 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

This is very much what I've been suggesting as well, although I think the range should be 450 optimal, 600 max, so you get an accurate brawling range weapon that very quickly loses effectiveness outside that range.

[Serious Table]

Gentleman Reaper, on 29 June 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

This is very much what I've been suggesting as well, although I think the range should be 450 optimal, 600 max, so you get an accurate brawling range weapon that very quickly loses effectiveness outside that range.

But nobody's brawling at 450m. That's medium range...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sorry, but velocity is not this weapons problem, its heat. Hell, they could give it a bit of splash (7.5-1.25-1.25) and reduce its heat down to the LPLs (7) and I'd be cool with it. They may not even need to add the splash to it and just reduce the heat down to 7 since it won't have the ability to shoot 3 at a time like the LPL and it won't be as effective at range as the LPL.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 June 2017 - 09:26 AM.

[MrVei]

less heat would be nice. 9.5 like the standard PPC or less

[davoodoo]

Serious Table, on 29 June 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

But nobody's brawling at 450m. That's medium range...

Tell ppl mounting clpls that theyre doing it wrong.

[Serious Table]

davoodoo, on 29 June 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Tell ppl mounting clpls that theyre doing it wrong.

That's not brawling.

That's poking at 450 meters.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Serious Table, on 29 June 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

But nobody's brawling at 450m. That's medium range...

Going below 400-450 meters falls within the close-medium bracket, which is where brawling tends to be.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gentleman Reaper, on 29 June 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

Going below 400-450 meters falls within the close-medium bracket, which is where brawling tends to be.

Brawling is shorter than 400m, brawling is cSPL (or at least before they nerfed it to oblivion) and SRM range. 270m is generally short range poke territory (like the very very old Boomcat). That said, the reason you often see cLPLs at mid range is because they are paired with cMPLs or cERMLs to supplant alphas because volley firing cMPLs or cERMLs may yield better DPS, the importance of getting a huge alpha is important for those energy boats.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 June 2017 - 09:54 AM.

[LennStar]

MrVei, on 29 June 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

less heat would be nice. 9.5 like the standard PPC or less

It already has a ton less and no minimum range.

[Oberost]

LennStar, on 29 June 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

It already has a ton less and no minimum range.

And crappy range...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LennStar, on 29 June 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

It already has a ton less and no minimum range.

Which doesn't really make it better because it also has half the optimal and damn near half the max range. Meaning it isn't near as useful. That one ton less also just barely gives you an edge over the PPC heat wise, yes the 0.5 heat difference is barely countered by an extra DHS (which takes up more space than the extra crit you gain mind you) meaning you lose a boat load of range to lose your dead zone, that's a crappy trade-off. It is a shorter ranged weapon, meaning it needs the ability to sustain more damage than the regular PPC, meaning it needs lower heat.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 June 2017 - 12:18 PM.

[Oberost]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 June 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

Which doesn't really make it better because it also has half the optimal and damn near half the max range. Meaning it isn't near as useful. That one ton less also just barely gives you an edge over the PPC heat wise, yes the 0.5 heat difference is barely countered by an extra DHS (which takes up more space than the extra crit you gain mind you) meaning you lose a boat load of range to lose your dead zone, that's a crappy trade-off. It is a shorter ranged weapon, meaning it needs the ability to sustain more damage than the regular PPC, meaning it needs lower heat.

And raise its GH limit to 3 so it can compete with the LPL? Or this would be too much?

[Davegt27]

SN PPC seems fine to me

what exactly is the problem

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Oberost, on 29 June 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

And raise its GH limit to 3 so it can compete with the LPL? Or this would be too much?

Honestly all PPCs need their ghost heat limit to compete better with cERPPC boats, but that's a separate topic. Lowering heat is the first thing that needs to be done to make this actually useful.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 June 2017 - 12:22 PM.

[MechaBattler]

From it's lore description. You get the impression that it's optimal range is higher than normal, while it's max range is shorter. So it should have a higher optimal range, but it's max should be reduced.

But forgetting that. I find them to be the better addition currently. AC20+2Snub PPC work great. Plus a TC for more projectile speed. My Orion wrecks.

Edited by MechaBattler, 29 June 2017 - 12:26 PM.

[Estella Jimenez]

MechaBattler, on 29 June 2017 - 12:24 PM, said:

From it's lore description. You get the impression that it's optimal range is higher than normal, while it's max range is shorter. So it should have a higher optimal range, but it's max should be reduced.

By "lore description" I assume you mean Sarna. It gives a vague description and some numbers on the side that probably don't make sense if you don't play tabletop Battletech.

The thing about tabletop range brackets is that they normally don't mean a reduction in damage with distance. In tabletop you have to roll two six sided dice (2d6) and get a value above a target in order to hit your target. The target is the gunnery skill value of the mechwarrior (4 for a regular mechwarrior) modified by various conditions in the game that make the target higher or lower.

The range brackets of a weapon short/medium/long indicate what modifier is added to your to-hit roll. Short range is +0, Medium Range is +2, and Long Range is +4. So firing a PPC at long range by a regular mechwarrior with no other to-hit modifiers requires a roll of 8 or greater on 2d6. If it hits it still does 10 damage. You cannot fire a PPC at longer than long range, so a PPC will always do 10 damage to any target it can hit.

Now the interesting thing about the Snub-nose PPC is that it's one of very few weapons that does have decreasing damage with range. At short range it does 10 damage, Medium range 8 damage, Long range 5 damage.

So why do weapons in MWO do less damage to targets outside their effective range?

Let's look at the tabletop values for PPC range to get an idea of what's going on:
I'm going to give ranges in meters, tabletop actually uses hexes with each hex being 30m.

Minimum Range: 3 hexes or 90m
(Minimum range in tabletop doesn't work like in MWO. The PPC still does 10 damage inside 90m but at 3 hexes adds +1 to the to-hit roll, 2 hexes is +2, and 1 hex is +3.)

Short Range to 180m
Medium Range to 360m
Long Range to 540m

In tabletop the PPC does 10 damage out to 540m and cannot hit anything beyond 540m.
In MWO the PPC does 10 damage out to 540m, but can continue to hit targets beyond 540m for reduced damage. So we can see that MWO has extended the range of weapons beyond their tabletop values and this is the region where we see damage fall-off.

So let's see what's going on with the snub-nose PPC:

Short Range to 270m (hits for 10 damage)
Medium Range to 390m (hits for 8 damage)
Long Range to 450m (hits for 5 damage)

Notice that the snub-nose actually suffers damage fall-off in tabletop, unlike the regular PPC.

In MWO the optimal range is 270m, exactly the range where the snub-nose does it's full damage in tabletop, and that the maximum range extends out to 630m, so it still benefits from the extended range scale of MWO.

TLDR:
Given how MWO has implemented other weapon systems in the past and how the snub-nose PPC works in tabletop, the current implementation in MWO is exactly what we should expect as a baseline.

The only quibble I have is that the snub-nose should probably benefit from the re-balancing done to the standard PPC and be dropped down to 9.5 heat as well.

[HeresWhy]

The numbers are god awful for this weapon.

It's a pretty simple formula to follow

If RHD = T
If RDT = H
If RTH = D
If DHT = R

SNPPC fails to enter into either of the first two categories.

Edited by HeresWhy, 29 June 2017 - 01:43 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

The SNPPC is one of the few new weapons that I have tried and tested that I thought could actually be useful as it stands. A bit less heat would be beneficial but everything else is fine as it is IMO.

[Estella Jimenez]

HeresWhy, on 29 June 2017 - 01:40 PM, said:

The numbers are god awful for this weapon.

It's a pretty simple formula to follow

If RHD = T
If RDT = H
If RTH = D
If DHT = R

SNPPC fails to enter into either of the first two categories.

Can you please explain what that means?