12 replies to this topic

[Mike Barnes]

Okay so in my tests, I ran a stopwatch against TTK on the crimson straight atlas for standard and rotary autocannons, I din't run against ultras, for reasons you'll read in a moment. These tests were done in a VTR-9S for IS and a KDK-3 for clan weapons since they don't have any ballistic cool down quirks, just range and velocity n the case of the victor. Each listed time is the average of three runs, with the exception of the Rac/5 as it had a run where it did not jam 'til the atlas was dead that time is denoted with an asterisk, and then a second time which is the average of three more reasonable runs is listed. [color=#000000]I had to toss my data for both the C-uac/2 and the C-uac/20 for hilariously opposite reasons; in five tests of the C-uac/2 I didn't receive less than a 30% jam rate, while in five tests of the c-UAC/20 I didn't jam once. If someone else wants to get decent data here, please use a kodiak-3 for clan weapons and a VTR-9S for IS guns, please do not use any other mechs, and make sure that you do both with an empty skill tree. just follow those guidelines, and post your data, I'll math it, I am a professional.



Standard ACs just holding the trigger TTK:
AC/2 - 1:07.86
AC/5 - 1:00.99
AC/10 - 46.20
AC/20 - 36.58

UAC/2 - 1:01.39 this also had the largest data span, with 1:19.98 at the long end, and 51.44 at the short
UAC/5 - 49.88 I also want to note here that even the longest ttk was shorter than the average ttk from the rac/5.
UAC/10 - 44.71
UAC/20 - 31.59

Clan

C-uac/5 - 50.42
C-UAC/10 - 45.95

Racs, just holding the button down til it jams, and starts firing again
RAC/2 - 1:53.54
RAC/5 - 0:31.35*, 0:58.91

Racs, a full run to red of the bar, and then a full cool down. No jamming, also note that the gun heat will go up without firing a shot, no matter where it is if the barrel is not spinning; you can get the gun to red heat without shooting.

RAC/2 - 2:46.94
RAC/5 - 1:18.42

Data Notes: If you get lucky, it takes less than 20 seconds to center core an atlas with a UAC that does not jam, it is kinda great to watch. Also with the setups being so close in so many stats, I believe that the overall on the c-UAC/2 and 20 will be the same as the IS, but this is exhausting.

Seriously though, the RAC/2 is currently complete garbage, as for 33% more tonnage and 200% more crit spaces, severely reduced range, and just so much more heat, you get half of the DPS. The 5 similarly needs a huge damage boost just to be a competitive weapon but it isn't in as bad of shape as the 2.

Realistically, the closest tonnage and crit space weapon to the RAC/5 and Rac/2 up there is the C-uac/10, and and C-UAC/5 respectively these also have pretty similar ranges. If PGI wants for CW tech to close the gap between Clan and IS, then I feel that TTK should match those weapons or beat them by a little bit as the RACs really pump heat. In the meantime, we will have to continue to use heavier guns for the same damage levels.

[Vladosteron]

I also have tested the RAC5 against the other IS 5-Class Autocannons.

I have tested These in Academy against the Towers, firing each for 5 seconds (the Time the RAC has till the Bar turns red)
AC5/LBX5 do 20 Points of Damage in this time UAC5 does 30-35 most of the time, and RAC5 does 40.5.

With the Long time the RAC Needs to empty ist bar it is way inferior in Damage over time, but wins in "Bursts"

I think it either Needs a longer Time-till-Jam, or a faster recovery to be truly viable, this even more Counts for the RAC2

Edited by Vladosteron, 29 June 2017 - 11:33 PM.

[Khobai]

The RAC5 is really screwed up. If you fire it responsibly without the bar going red, it ends up doing less DPS than a standard AC5. That makes no sense.

There is absolutely zero incentive to manage the jam bar because the only way the RAC does halfway decent damage is if you run it into the red and risk jamming it. Thats absurd.

They need to make it so the RAC can fire longer before the bar reaches the end (it should be able to fire for 10 seconds instead of 5 seconds) but it should automatically jam if the bar reaches the end. That way theres actually incentive to manage the jam bar and make sure it doesnt reach the end.

Quote

I think it either Needs a longer Time-till-Jam, or a faster recovery to be truly viable, this even more Counts for the RAC2

It needs a longer time till jam and it needs to automatically jam if the bar reaches the end.

Edited by Khobai, 29 June 2017 - 11:47 PM.

[kapusta11]

RAC5s are just cUAC10s with "missile" spread, spin up time and burst fire damage stretched over the span of several seconds, read: flat out inferior. Having access to cUAC10 as an IS is nice, but I guess it has to be completely worthless come at the cost of something, right?

[WhyHelloDer]

I ran the numbers on the time it takes to fully spin up, and how long it takes to cooldown as well as to unjam. Assuming you either stop firing at the red or you immediately jam, these are what the numbers look like:

Class 2 Autocannons

RAC/2: 1.05 seconds spin up -> 3.95 seconds spent firing for 4 dps -> 10 second CD/Jam

AC/2: 15 seconds firing for 2.78 dps

Class 5 Autocannons

RAC/5: 1.05 seconds spin up -> 3.95 seconds spent firing for 9.6 dps -> 10 second CD/Jam

AC/5: 15 seconds firing for 3.01 dps

So, over this 15 second period the RACs are only firing for 3.95 seconds. That is only 26.3% of the total time period, and thus to get the actual dps of a RAC weapon you need to multiply them by .263. So, the actual sustained dps of RAC weapons, as compared to their normal AC counterparts is as follows:

RAC/2: 1.052
AC/2: 2.78
RAC/5: 2.548
AC/5: 3.01

This is a test for sustained dps, and the RAC just does not cut it...

My recommendations would be a boost in damage output, increase in jam bar length, not make the spin up affect the jam bar(other than to make it stop cooling down), and make the bar cooldown faster than it unjams. If it takes just as long to clear a jam then there is no point in managing the bar lets be honest.

Edited by WhyHelloDer, 30 June 2017 - 12:11 AM.

[Blue Leviathan]

Just tested in academy using MAL-MX90. Damage numbers were taken from my best attempts(fewest jams).

2 Guns
60 seconds
No Skills
AC2 - 332
UAC2 - 364
RAC2 - 184
RAC2 No Jam - 140
(Let cool when bar fills)

10 Seconds
AC2 - 69
UAC2 - 78
RAC2 - 60

5 Seconds
AC2 - 32
UAC2 - 54 (avg 36)
RAC2 - 39

Full Firepower Skills
60 Seconds
AC2 - 380
UAC2 - 412
RAC2 - 216
RAC2 no jam - 140

10 Seconds
AC2 - 72
UAC2 - 94
RAC2 - 62

5 Seconds
AC2 - 36
UAC2 - 62 (avg 38)
RAC2 - 42

RAC2 under preforms in short bursts and sustained fire, that's before the soft cap of two guns, damage spread, shorter range, slower projectiles, extra critical slots and increased weight.
UAC2 looks to be in a good place.

Also note: after further testing for 5 seconds burst RAC2 wins by a small margin. Only because UAC2 can jam after first double tap.

Increasing the time until first jam to between 10 and 15 seconds (the time of a small brawl) would help it significantly.
Lower heat to 1 or 1.5 and remove ghost heat.

EDIT: just for fun
Full Firepower Skills

10 seconds
LMG - 12.6
RMG - 19.2
HMG - 30

60 Seconds
LMG - 72.6
RMG - 114.2
HMG - 181

Sub 90m the HMG beats RAC2 with ease.

Edited by Blue Leviathan, 30 June 2017 - 01:50 AM.

[Vladosteron]

Thanks guys for testing all this stuff out!

The question is, what do we want the RAC to do?
Right now it seems like PGI is going for "good in Bursts bad for sustained DPS", i´m ok with this. But The Weapon has to fill this niche better!

Do you share this opinion?

[Y E O N N E]

Less heat and a little bit longer up-time would do wonders.

[Blue Leviathan]

As suppression the idea isn't bad, cover your opponent in sparks. That would require lowering heat per shot and removing ghost heat, along with longer fire time before jam.

Edited by Blue Leviathan, 30 June 2017 - 01:14 AM.

[davoodoo]

double the jam bar and dont start filling it before it actually fires.

10s fire for some decent damage before you fall back to recover.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 June 2017 - 02:02 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

What blows right now is that if there's a piece of cover nearby, you can bait the enemy into starting to fire at you with RACs, drop behind the cover for a sec, and then pop back out and hammer on him with impunity because he's still on cool-down. It's easy-mode.

[Mike Barnes]

Vladosteron, on 30 June 2017 - 12:54 AM, said:

Thanks guys for testing all this stuff out!

The question is, what do we want the RAC to do?
Right now it seems like PGI is going for "good in Bursts bad for sustained DPS", i´m ok with this. But The Weapon has to fill this niche better!

Do you share this opinion?

If they want burst damage, I wanna stack of them, Like a 3rac/5s before ghost heat, and 4 rac/2s and the RAC/2 needs it's damage Increased significantly. 4 seconds of 4 DPS, that isn't burst, that's the big tickler, seriously think about what you can do with four medium lasers in that same time span of five seconds to warm up, blast and cool down. The Rac, should be strong, for the weight the heat and the range it should be doing more damage than the clan UACs, which by the way have about the same or greater burst potential, without the face time. think about it, You run a rac/2 til jam, VS a c-uac/5 the uac will get about 6 (jamming once, which we can then figure out statistically what our expected value is for shots fired or 3.9777) shots and the rac will fire for 4 seconds, this puts the rac damage at 16, and the expected value of the UAC damage at 19.8887. So even for two mechs just standing there like total freaking meatheads, the burst of the UAC is better and the burst of the standard ac is only one point lower. And then from the table if they are going for sustained or suppressive fire, they just don't cut it, especially when you can lock and load almost 7 standard AC/2s for the same weight as four RAC/2s and the racs are going to kill you with heat. For burst purposes I would like to see everything else remain the same, and throw the RAC/2 to 16.32 DPS, and the RAC/5 to 18.18 DPS, and then have like a MASC potential if you hold the button to long the gun blows up, none of this jamming thing, you lose the damned gun if you go wild.

[Agent 0range]

Racs should start firing straight away and dps should ramp up. Spin down shouldn't stop you firing again it should slow down cooling but allow you to fire at a higher dps as if it had spun up to that speed. Cuurently massive face time where if you stop shooting you leave yourself open for more alphas. The weapon is bad they put everything on it they could to make it crap.