61 replies to this topic

[AngrySpartan]

Most of new weapon systems in this PTS are completely useless or at least have some huge problems. Since Clans have only 2 new weapons and ATMs got a lot of attention already I wanted to bring some more light to the Heavy lasers. Cause those are...dissapointing to put it mildly.

There are 2 main problems with them IMHO:
1. Insane burn duration & cooldowns
2. With current stats there is always better alternative - Heavy lasers do not have any defined role.

Duration & cooldown has an obvious solution (obvious for everyone who play the game instead of number crunching of course): Cooldown and duration should be adequate for the intended range of the weapon. And by adequate in that exact case I mean they should not exceed ER lasers by a huge margin.

For the second problem, there are some more words and reasoning under the spoilers. If you're not interested - just skip to the stats and roles I suggest down below.

Update 01.07:
After the patch update - link to the post. Short version - slightly shorter duration (0,05-0,15) in exchange for higher cooldowns. Changed nothing in the grand scheme (updated table under the link)

Update 02.07: Added some recorded Duels with HMLs and HSLs. Video under the spoilers below. Big thanks to Renegade666 for being my sparring partner.

I. Heavy smalls = "pokey" alternative to ERSL, less range, more alpha, same DPS&HPS

Spoiler

Some thoughts from the discussion with Reno Blade and others:
Heavy smalls are identical in their role to ERSLs and SPLs - close range fighting. With only 100m optimal one may call it knife range. And they have the same weight as ERSLs thus making them direct "competitors".

HSLs do 1 point more damage than ERSLs. Just a Single point of damage more! And for that single point of damage (CSPLs had that 6 DMG until recently!) HSL get punished with 40% more heat, 36% longer cooldown (not even counting the duration!), insane burn time and 50% less range. Make no sense at all.

Assuming HSL duration will be fixed first (no longer than ERSL - 1,1s) and will keep the same 6 damage new stats should be around these to make HSLs competitive:
Cooldown -3,5s, Heat - 3,6 (ERSLs have 2,75s and 3 heat).
You still will have a hard time to brawl with them (duration and CD are still high) but they will be an ok weapon at least. And don't forget - they work only at point blank range.

Update 02.07: HSLs are not competitive with microPLs at all! Video under the spoilers:

Spoiler

Duel is not equal to 12v12 match by any means, but comparing same mech with competing loadouts gives a good representation if weapon is competitve or not.
Mirror builds Duel #1: me piloting 10HSL Nova vs. renegade666 piloting 12 microPL Nova. That's not on the footage, but even though I did 2 free salvos in the beginning (so at least 40-60 damage) microPLs did ~80 more damage in the end. With their current DPS HSLs simply not worth it.

Spoiler

Mirror builds Duel #2: we swapped the mechs to make it more representative, now I am piloting 12 microPL Nova and renegade666 piloting 10HSL Nova. Again microPLs did about 100 more damage (and again I derped and stopped recording earlierPosted Image).
Sidenote: microPL Nova is cold as Ice, whereas HSLs have some heat issues. microPLs gained more and more advantage as the match continued.

II. Heavy mediums = "poor man's ERML/MPL" (alternative for ERMLs/MPLs for fast hardpoint/tonnage starving mechs)

Spoiler

HMLs are in an odd place, it's hard to define their role on the battlefield. I mean it has lower range than MPLs and with higher damage&heat, but at the same weight as ERMLs. At 270 optimal range that's already on the edge of brawl, you can't brawl well with ERMLs because of burn time. MPLs are ok in that sense though, but weight twice as much and at 330m+ you still can outrange AC20s and especially SRMs. You can't sync them with LPLs, in fact you can sync them well only with SRMs/ATMs/UAC20 and the last two a complete garbage right now.

The only place I can imagine for HMLs is to be a replacement to MPLs/ERMLs for hardpoint and tonnage starving fast mechs like MLX or IceBox or ShadowCat. Assuming burn time would be reduced to 1,25 they would be a viable weapon for those mechs, for everyone else ERMLs and MPLs will still be superior due to better stats (MPLs) or better range and sync possibilities (ERMLs). Besides HMLs are capped at 4 on a heatscale.

With stats suggested HMLs has more DPS than ERMLs and less than MPLs, with less range than either of those. They has the same HPS as ERMLs and still a lot worse than MPLs. And HML low tonnage isn't that important, cause you'll need a lot of heatsinks to offset the heat anyway.

Update 02.07: HMLs and HLLs versus MPLs. Duels footage under the spoilers:

Spoiler

Duel #3: XL375 9MPL Mad-II-C (me) vs. 5HML+3HLL Mad-II-C (renegade666). Long burn duration of HLL did not allow my opponent to torso twist, and Heavy lasers insane heat build up limited his damage output. Unsurprisingly Heavy lasers in their current state (especially HLL) are quite useless. Pay attention on final damage score - MPLs did whooping 280 more damage, more than twice than Heavies!!!. Quite impressive even considering that Renegade's build was not optimal IMO.

Spoiler

Duel#4. XL400 8HML Mad-IIC vs. XL400 7MPL Mad-IIC. Even though I was able to win with HMLs, that's only because of better aim and torso twisting in this particular round. Pay attention on the final damage score - MPLs still did approx. 80 more damage on IMHO suboptimal build (XL400 ain't worth the loss of 2MPLs, and renegade's mech was underweight by 1,5t)!

III. Heavy large = "LPL replacement" in ERML+LPL laservom or LPL/PPC+Gauss builds. Less range&accuracy, more alpha and free weight.

Spoiler

HLLs is a pain in the a.. to make viable. Just looking at what it offers makes me sad:
450 optimal syncs with ERMLs perfectly (thus HLLs may be used instead LPLs/ERLLs for laservom builds), terrible damage to heat ratio, insane cooldown and duration. With current stats noone would ever take them instead of couple of ERMLs and HLL can't compete with ERMLs because of weight.

So the only thing HLL can do is to compete with ERLLs/LPLs in laservom builds to squieeze some more damage into maximum alpha strike.
Just making HLL duration the same as ERLL at 1,35 alone will make their DPS equal (6s HLL cooldown). Reducing Heat to 15 will make them roughly equal in terms oh DPH. That way HLL will be equal to x1,5 ERLLs at no weight cost, but with half the range and +40% cooldown. That's still not competitive with LPLs, so I would have reduced HLLs cooldown to make them closer in terms of DPS.

Even with my stats HLLs will be hot as hell, and there are only a couple mechs capable of handling 2 HLLs+some ERMLs (big engine MAD-IICs, Timber wolf, maybe single HLL+ERMLs on SCR/LBK). Would be an ok (shorter ranged, less accurate, hotter, but with bigger alpha) alternative to LPL+MLs, and a blessing for mechs like Linbacker with limited weight available for better laservom builds. With such heat output crit space for heatsinks worth a lot more than free weight, thus HLLs are on par with LPLs in that sense as well.

What are your thoughts, fellow Heavy laser enthusiasts?

Edited by AngrySpartan, 02 July 2017 - 08:02 AM.

[Fox the Apprentice]

Broken poll, question 2 is a loaded question that requires an answer.

[AngrySpartan]

Fox the Apprentice, on 30 June 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

Broken poll, question 2 is a loaded question that requires an answer.

What do you mean? You have to answer Q2 anyway to make Questions 1 and 3 count?

Edit: nevermind, that's how it works. Added "I'd still use them option". Never expect it would be necessary though. Heavy lasers with current duration may be dropped from the game with no regrets.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 30 June 2017 - 08:46 AM.

[Safari Gepard]

God,so,long duration hml, pgi trying to kill the gameplay. I thing all what they are trying to do - 0 online.

Almost 2sec of duration,oh god,this is idea from pgi to do 5 kills from 1 shot? 1 laser shot = 5 kills

They know how,to kill the game.

Is duration = from 0.5 to 1.2,clans from 0.8 to "no end"

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

That beam time is pretty silly but I can see why they're trying to do it. Tempt people into it and then be able to land the damage. I can see the useage in heavy med/small lasers but the large is useless.
The cooldown is rediculous which makes the med's not so appealing at all either.

As usual, nice idea but ... no sale.

[AngrySpartan]

Safari Gepard, on 30 June 2017 - 12:23 PM, said:

God,so,long duration hml, pgi trying to kill the gameplay. I thing all what they are trying to do - 0 online.

Almost 2sec of duration,oh god,this is idea from pgi to do 5 kills from 1 shot? 1 laser shot = 5 kills

They know how,to kill the game.

Is duration = from 0.5 to 1.2,clans from 0.8 to "no end"

I guess they were inspired by certain Star wars weapon:


I'll repeat that again (hopefully someone at PGI will make a huge poster and will put it on the wall of their game designer):
Cooldown and duration should be adequate for the intended range of the weapon.

We had useless ERLL for years with 1,5 duration. And ERLL can fire at 750+ meters.
Now we have HSL with the same duration as ERLL - 1,35! And optimal range of 100, where you may lose line of sight to an enemy mech in less than 0,5 second.

There are limits of how much you can stretch duration and cooldown at certain range bracket. Heavy lasers are far beyond those limits as of now. There should be "balanced" way to balance things instead of nerfing single parameter into oblivion.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 30 June 2017 - 12:48 PM.

[AngrySpartan]

Update after the patch (only game description, as there are no patchnote available yet.
HSL duration decreased to 1,2 (from 1,35), Cooldown increased to 3,9 (from 3,75), max range now-80% of optimum(180m)
HML duration got buffed to 1,45 (from 1,6), Cooldown increased to 5,15 (from 5)
HLL duration decreased to 1,55 (from 1,7). Thankfully cooldown is still the same whooping 6 seconds.

Net positive change - slightly better duration makes them a bit more viable. Negative - Heavy lasers still lose competition to everything other clan weapon can offer.
New weapon comparison table, decide for yourself if it's worth it:

Edited by AngrySpartan, 30 June 2017 - 01:21 PM.

[davoodoo]

Imo poll lacks some options.

I will certainly use heavy lasers on few mechs, for example i plan on replacing 2 lpl with 2 hll on my mad2c, ill gladly put 4 hml on my kdk3 as backup.

But for laservomit heavy mediums are just too bulky and hot to consider them as you wont be able to fit enough dhs while heavies cooldown is still too long and many ppl wont consider that long duration worthwhile.

So yeah, they should all have er versions durations trading range for damage.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 June 2017 - 03:20 PM.

[AngrySpartan]

davoodoo, on 30 June 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

Imo poll lacks some options.

I will certainly use heavy lasers on few mechs, for example i plan on replacing 2 lpl with 2 hll on my mad2c, ill gladly put 4 hml on my kdk3 as backup.

But for laservomit heavy mediums are just too bulky and hot to consider them as you wont be able to fit enough dhs while heavies cooldown is still too long and many ppl wont consider that long duration worthwhile.

So yeah, they should all have er versions durations trading range for damage.

Exactly my thoughts. Even assuming HML/HLL will be viable weapon, it's hard to build proper mech with it.

MAD-IIC - top notch clan energy boat.
9MPL on XL375+ build - one of the best for it. You can build 8HML, but than you have to sacrifice Endo and take inefficient XL400. And even with my stats it still will be hotter, lose some range and lots of accuracy. Range is debatable though, cause Heavies still have x2 maximum range. Is it viable with what we have on PTS? Hell, no!

MAD-IIC with 2LPL+6ERML can be turned into 2HLL+6ERML, but again you'll have to get rid of Endo to make room for heatsinks, so HLL weight advantage could be neglected. You'll lose range and accuracy for some more oompphh on you working distance. Would be an ok tradeoff, assuming horrible duration and cooldown will be fixed of course.

BTW What options did I miss?

Edited by AngrySpartan, 30 June 2017 - 03:31 PM.

[LordNothing]

i found it very easy to leg lights with the heavy large laser. i could trade some cooldown for a little shorter duration. keep the dps where it is though.

[AngrySpartan]

LordNothing, on 30 June 2017 - 03:38 PM, said:

i found it very easy to leg lights with the heavy large laser. i could trade some cooldown for a little shorter duration. keep the dps where it is though.

In what sense? I can understand why it's easy to leg them with Streaks or SRMs simply because tracking/brute firepower, but HLL has neither of those. It's the most inaccurate weapon in the game.

Considering DPS: Heavies already trade ~50% range and heat efficiency for damage compared to ER models. Why punish them even more for the fact they have bigger number in damage stat? You can't use that for pinpoint alpha anyway - HSLs are capped at 5 and HMLs at 4 without Ghost heat, that's roughly the same alpha as with ERs.
In fact the more I am using HSLs the more I believe they need a buff in DPS. 100-200 range is quite common for brawl, whereas 100 is so damn close! You'll have to be a true facehugger to make use of them!
And even than, there are strong competitors like SPLs (and their accuracy still make them far superior to HSLs).

Edited by AngrySpartan, 30 June 2017 - 03:54 PM.

[LordNothing]

AngrySpartan, on 30 June 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

In what sense? I can understand why it's easy to leg them with Streaks or SRMs simply because tracking/brute firepower, but HLL has neither of those. It's the most inaccurate weapon in the game.

Considering DPS: Heavies already trade ~50% range and heat efficiency for damage compared to ER models. Why punish them even more for the fact they have bigger number in damage stat? You can't use that for pinpoint alpha anyway - HSLs are capped at 5 and HMLs at 4 without Ghost heat, that's roughly the same alpha as with ERs.
In fact the more I am using HSLs the more I believe they need a buff in DPS. 100-200 range is quite common for brawl, whereas 100 is so damn close! You'll have to be a true facehugger to make use of them!
And even than, there are strong competitors like SPLs (and their accuracy still make them far superior to HSLs).

the match where i managed to leg a bunch of lights i was in a dire wolf and the enemy were mostly lights and mediums. i was running 4 hlls, 4hmgs and an atm12. i used the atms to soften up some of the larger mechs. as the battle progressed the rest of the team died taking out the bigger mechs and i was left alone against 2 lights. i legged one with the atms at moderate range, this let me work on the other light. i got a clean leg shot on my first try against what was mostly intact. i then swepped the other leg out from under him with the other set. i then swung around towards the remaining mech and managed to take out its other leg with my hll before my atms locked on.

i kind of think that dps is the role for the pulse lasers and that heavy lasers need to be all about damage/duration. right now the clpl still dominates this role. i could have easily achieved my light killing dire shenanigans with 4 lpls. here are the damage.duration numbers for all the clan large lasers:

er 8.15
pulse 11.01
heavy 10.32

i suggest getting the damage/duration for the heavy laser to about 12 to give it the most pain per tick. taking the duration down to about 1.33 would do this. to keep the dps where it is the cooldown needs to go up to 6.22. actual dps numbers should probibly be a little better than the erll but not much better, nowhere near the lpl which is the dps weapon.

Edited by LordNothing, 30 June 2017 - 04:32 PM.

[Cranial Enigma]

After testing out the heavy laser family I agree with your changes on the small and large laser, but I do no like some of the changes for the medium class. Right now I am having major issues trying to justify using 4 heavy medium lasers compared to 5 er mediums.

The 4 heavy lasers do more damage, less range, more heat, longer duration, and a much longer cooldown, while the 5 er mediums have longer range, less damage (35 to 40), less heat, shorter duration, and a usuable cooldown. I do not understand why you want to increase the heat of the heavy mediums when they are not worth it right now. With the restrictions on range/cooldown/and duration even with your proposed changes I cannot justify using heavy mediums at this point. Especially since they also take up two slots compared to er mediums 1 slot.

[50 50]

It's a tough call.
Initially when trying them out they did feel quite powerful if you can keep the beam trained well enough.
Very hot though and to me, not really different enough in their application than the other lasers so it seemed like more of the same and my initial thought was "How can I turn this into a continuous beam weapon?"

I do love the sound for them, they sound 'heavy',

If for balancing purposes we don't want one weapon system to make another one obsolete then the figures as they are at the moment make the heavy lasers just a variation on the ERs. The Pulse versions tend to have a higher DPS and also higher Heat/Sec but also compensate the difference by weighing more.

If we made the heavy lasers have a short duration and huge cool down they would be different to the ERs but start to make the Pulse lasers lose their luster. Go the other way and it impacts the ERs.

Hence why I feel the weapons should actually function differently so they are in their own class/role.

Edited by 50 50, 30 June 2017 - 08:08 PM.

[AngrySpartan]

Cranial Enigma, on 30 June 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

After testing out the heavy laser family I agree with your changes on the small and large laser, but I do no like some of the changes for the medium class. Right now I am having major issues trying to justify using 4 heavy medium lasers compared to 5 er mediums.

The 4 heavy lasers do more damage, less range, more heat, longer duration, and a much longer cooldown, while the 5 er mediums have longer range, less damage (35 to 40), less heat, shorter duration, and a usuable cooldown. I do not understand why you want to increase the heat of the heavy mediums when they are not worth it right now. With the restrictions on range/cooldown/and duration even with your proposed changes I cannot justify using heavy mediums at this point. Especially since they also take up two slots compared to er mediums 1 slot.

Every stat suggested is based on the assumption Duration would be fixed first, if Heavies' duration will be longer than ER models there will be no reasons to use them anyway. For HML at 270 optimal range duration of 1,25 (same as ERML) is on the edge of being usable.

Considering heat increase: ok, let's assume HML has the duration of 1,25 (ERML). That way HML will have roughly the same DPS as ERML, but will be slightly better at heat efficiency. +0,5 heat is nothing in the grand scheme of things, but it will make single HML Damage per Heat (DMH) the same as single ERML DPH.
And since you'll likely use 4 HMLs against 5 ERML, HML will still be more heat effecient. That's "give & take" approach, not just "give" or only "take".

With this change alone HML will start to be usable, though MPLs and ERMLs will have an edge to it, simply because MPL is a waay better weapon and you can sync ERMLs with beeter weapons (better range bracket). That's why slight cooldown buff is needed for HML - it needs to be better than ERML, at least in a single thing (damage dealing). And again it's 4 HMLs against 5 ERMLs, so actual DPS will be roughly the same!

Edited by AngrySpartan, 01 July 2017 - 01:29 AM.

[Rusharn]

The range on the hvy lasers is so low, the heat so high, and they take more crits slots than other weapons that I think the duration of the lasers should he lowered to their ER laser counter parts. Don't change the cooldown and leave the theoretical DPS high. I say theoretical because it is the heat of these weapons that should be limiting the DPS. They should hit really hard in their first attack and after that the clan mech should be riding the shutdown line, even in polar highlands. Hvy lasers should be really hard to boat not because of ghost heat, but because the base heat of the weapon itself. That is the concept of the weapon, take from range, add heat, make the weapon larger and pour all that into the raw damage of the weapon. A hvy laser should be a brutal thing to be hit by but the Heat should be as brutal to deal with.

[AngrySpartan]

Rusharn, on 01 July 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

The range on the hvy lasers is so low, the heat so high, and they take more crits slots than other weapons that I think the duration of the lasers should he lowered to their ER laser counter parts. Don't change the cooldown and leave the theoretical DPS high. I say theoretical because it is the heat of these weapons that should be limiting the DPS. They should hit really hard in their first attack and after that the clan mech should be riding the shutdown line, even in polar highlands. Hvy lasers should be really hard to boat not because of ghost heat, but because the base heat of the weapon itself. That is the concept of the weapon, take from range, add heat, make the weapon larger and pour all that into the raw damage of the weapon. A hvy laser should be a brutal thing to be hit by but the Heat should be as brutal to deal with.

Well "hard to boat" is already there for HMLs and HLLs - crit requirements are too high, and that's great! As shown in MAD-II-C builds above, you have to give up Endo for heatsinks and put really huge engine to utilize weight leftover. Only a handfull of mechs can do that, and even then boating conventional energy weapon would be more efficient.

Without proper duration - Heavies are useless. Without comparable DPS to ER counterparts - still useless. Hopefully PGI would be brave enough to give'em a try.

And I would love to see somthing like deep Orange/Ember colors for them with a release. And would love to have that "low signal" ECM effect through the burn duration of your Heavies to make them more lorefriendly.

PGI & Chris? Are you reading this? Please...

[Nomad One]

The original posters Heavy laser suggestions would definitely be worth testing. As it is, simply reducing duration and increasing cooldown won't make heavy lasers viable.

I would probably actually use these proposed heavy lasers for some hard hitting striker mechs, unlike the current ones (after 1st PTS change) which still have too long a duration to be wielded at their desired range.

PGI should also consider increasing clan laser duration reduction from skill tree to 15% like it is with inner sphere mechs. That would drop the clan HSL to 0.935 seconds, the HML to 1.0625 seconds and the HLL to 1.1475 seconds with AngrySpartans stat suggestions. That would make them a viable alternative to the raw heat efficient DPS provided by pulse lasers and the range provided by the extended range lasers.

Your suggestions have my approval, and support.

[Wintersdark]

Voted "too good, not worth testing" but to be honest, I didn't pay a lot of attention to the suggestions. I just don't have a lot of time to spend considering everyone's random selections, and am really only interested in giving my impressions of current testing - PGI will do what they'll do. No offense is intended here, and I'm not insulting you for giving your ideas.

I've spent a lot of time with HLL's today, and testing has borne out what math shows:

4xERML and 4xMPL are flatly better than 2xHLL (ghost heat limit); and both offer the ability to add more ERML/MPL's as you wish.

So, in any instance where energy hardpoints are not the limiting factor (almost every Clan mech; certainly every Clan Omnimech) ERML/MPL are a better choice than HLL.

Where energy hardpoints ARE a limitation (some battlemechs), then ERPPC's are a better option. Roughly same cooldown, and 20pp/10splash damage vs. 32mixed damage, but the ERPPC's are cooler (!!!!!) and sport a much longer range. In fact, unless you're just bad at leading with ERPPC's, I can't really see why you'd ever run HLL's instead. For some, I suppose, they'd be better for dealing with speedy lights as you can correct aim while firing [over that looooooong burn].

So, as it stands, HLL's aren't terrible, but they're almost never an optimal choice either. Even if you're hardpoint limited *AND* have heatcap to spare, it's tough to argue where you'd be better off with HLL's instead of ERPPC's. Maybe - MAYBE - when mixed with medium class lasers, but if you're taking 2HLL + ERML/MPL, heat is going to be a very serious concern very quickly.

[AngrySpartan]

Wintersdark, on 01 July 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

Voted "too good, not worth testing" but to be honest, I didn't pay a lot of attention to the suggestions. I just don't have a lot of time to spend considering everyone's random selections, and am really only interested in giving my impressions of current testing - PGI will do what they'll do. No offense is intended here, and I'm not insulting you for giving your ideas.

None taken, it's given that only a handfull of people will take those seriously and actually dig the tables. It's just the numbers to show what Heavy lasers should be to be competitive. PGI will still do what they do.

Wintersdark, on 01 July 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

I've spent a lot of time with HLL's today, and testing has borne out what math shows:

4xERML and 4xMPL are flatly better than 2xHLL (ghost heat limit); and both offer the ability to add more ERML/MPL's as you wish.

So, in any instance where energy hardpoints are not the limiting factor (almost every Clan mech; certainly every Clan Omnimech) ERML/MPL are a better choice than HLL.

Where energy hardpoints ARE a limitation (some battlemechs), then ERPPC's are a better option. Roughly same cooldown, and 20pp/10splash damage vs. 32mixed damage, but the ERPPC's are cooler (!!!!!) and sport a much longer range. In fact, unless you're just bad at leading with ERPPC's, I can't really see why you'd ever run HLL's instead. For some, I suppose, they'd be better for dealing with speedy lights as you can correct aim while firing [over that looooooong burn].

So, as it stands, HLL's aren't terrible, but they're almost never an optimal choice either. Even if you're hardpoint limited *AND* have heatcap to spare, it's tough to argue where you'd be better off with HLL's instead of ERPPC's. Maybe - MAYBE - when mixed with medium class lasers, but if you're taking 2HLL + ERML/MPL, heat is going to be a very serious concern very quickly.

Exactly my thoughts (under the spoiler - all the same reasoning). HLL can't compete with smaller 2MPLs/2ERMLs, can't compete with ERPPC and ERLL because they have much higher range, different roles basically.

The only weapon HLL could in theory compete with is a Large Pulse in laservom/Gaussvom builds. Basically you're trading accuracy & range for some extra weight and higher Alpha. To compete with LPL it needs much better stats however, duration & cooldown in particular.

IMHO PGI hasn't spend enough time thinking about the role of Heavy lasers and builds they can be used with, hence crippling weapon stats.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 01 July 2017 - 06:00 AM.