61 replies to this topic

[Appuagab]

I was expecting for heavy lasers' duration to be somewhere between ER lasers and pulse lasers so they would be like counterpart of IS regular lasers but kinda half of weight class higher. In their PTS state heavy lasers just don't have their niche, that's the problem. There's better option for high burst damage, better option for long range engagement, better option for sustained damage, better option for high DPS output, so what's the point of them? Just the raw number of firepower? Well, not with that huge tonnage.

[AngrySpartan]

Appuagab, on 01 July 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

I was expecting for heavy lasers' duration to be somewhere between ER lasers and pulse lasers so they would be like counterpart of IS regular lasers but kinda half of weight class higher. In their PTS state heavy lasers just don't have their niche, that's the problem...Well, not with that huge tonnage duration and cooldown.

Couldn't stand the temptation of fixing your phrase, sorry
Agree with the rest though, not a well thought weapon at all.

[ADI84000]

i tried heavy medium vs er medium .... and honestly... heavy mediums suck big time.. to long beam duration.... to much heat , insane cooldown and more heat and 4 ghost heat cap...
and .... double slots not worth it
needs cooldown similar to er medium and a bit less heat maybe like in lore and burn time arround 1.2-1.25

[AngrySpartan]

Just did some testing of Heavy smalls versus another half-ton weapon - MicroPulses. That's especially relevant, since they share the same range (90 opt. for MicroPulse, 100 for HSL, 180 maximum for both) as well.

Result is not surprising - you'll never ever take HSL over MicroPulse!
1. You can stack up to 7 Micro lasers before Ghost heat and with 3 damage it's 21 max alpha vs. 30 for 5 HSLs
2. MicroPulse has DPS of 1,25, slightly more that HSL has right now and almost as much as I suggested for HSL in the opening post
3. Duration of 0,5 for mPL versus 1,2 for HSLs. microPulses can be considered pinpoint weapon. Even with 1,1 duration I suggested it's hardly a fair competition.
4. Sweet part mPL: has 1,76 Damage per heat vs. 1,41 for HSL (with my suggestions it's DPH is 1,67)

Even comparing them ton per ton, micro Pulse dominate HSLs in every way. HSLs are hotter, has less DPS, twice less accurate. And I can't say microLasers are completely OP, microPulse in particular IMHO balanced with ERSLs and SPLs - SPL has more DPS and same accuracy, ERSL has more DPS and better range.

Anyone still in doubt that HSLs need some love???

Edited by AngrySpartan, 01 July 2017 - 09:24 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

You should have added one more choice to the first question. "Will use but only in a limited fashion".

That is where I stand right now. On most builds, I am having trouble incorporating Heavy Lasers at all. They are just too out of sync with all the other current energy weapons currently in use. They either spike your heat too much or the extended cooldown and/or extended beam duration dramatically throws off your timing when trying to combine HLs with the current Laser offerings.

However, I am having some success with "Pure" heavy laser builds or occasionally when pairing them with either Ballistics or Missiles on mixed builds. For example I mounted 7 x HML on one of my Gargoyles and used the weight saving to boat DHS and now I have a great brawler build Gargoyle with a capacity for up to 70 damage on an alpha strike. It is the first time ever that I felt the Gargoyle was worthwhile and had enough firepower to actually match up against other Assault mechs. I am also running a Linebacker with a pair of ATM6s, 1 x HLL and 2 x HML that is working out good as well. However these are very limited successes and I am not feeling that Heavy Lasers are a viable alternative to LPLs, ER MLs and ER SLs across the board. Heck now that they have reduced the beam duration on ER LLs, which are only 1 slot weapons, I am not seeing HLLs as being a viable alternative to them either.

[AngrySpartan]

Viktor Drake, on 01 July 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

You should have added one more choice to the first question. "Will use but only in a limited fashion".

That is where I stand right now. On most builds, I am having trouble incorporating Heavy Lasers at all. They are just too out of sync with all the other current energy weapons currently in use. They either spike your heat too much or the extended cooldown and/or extended beam duration dramatically throws off your timing when trying to combine HLs with the current Laser offerings.

However, I am having some success with "Pure" heavy laser builds or occasionally when pairing them with either Ballistics or Missiles on mixed builds. For example I mounted 7 x HML on one of my Gargoyles and used the weight saving to boat DHS and now I have a great brawler build Gargoyle with a capacity for up to 70 damage on an alpha strike. It is the first time ever that I felt the Gargoyle was worthwhile and had enough firepower to actually match up against other Assault mechs. I am also running a Linebacker with a pair of ATM6s, 1 x HLL and 2 x HML that is working out good as well. However these are very limited successes and I am not feeling that Heavy Lasers are a viable alternative to LPLs, ER MLs and ER SLs across the board. Heck now that they have reduced the beam duration on ER LLs, which are only 1 slot weapons, I am not seeing HLLs as being a viable alternative to them either.

Will add that option shortly. And you should try Gaggy with 12 SPL, even after nerf it still rocks and it's waaay better brawler than HML version.

[cougurt]

what i'd like is for them to add a HUD scrambling effect (perhaps repurpose the ECM disrupt effect) and a small amount of reticle shake, then drop the duration down to about the same level as pulse lasers.

i like your proposed stats though assuming they're not willing to implement any mechanical changes.

[Damnedtroll]

In TT the IS equivalent of the HLaser is the Binary laser. Both of them are more or less useless on most occasion. Heavy laser was more a way for Clan to tweak their old star league laser stock to be useful to sustain attrition rate during the war...

In MWO, maybe useful in a slot limited battlemech to have extra damage like on a MLX ? Cooldown is clearly an issue with the number presently proposed...

[Khobai]

I think the heavy laser beam duration is pretty spot on now

but the cooldowns and heat need to be decreased

[Tombs Clawtooth]

The heat is too much for any sane build that isn't quirked like crazy for energy heat reductions.

A warhawk quirked for -15% heat with 4 HLL, and the rest of the slots filled with heatsinks, was just barely possible to use in a game. While there's plenty of downsides to the HLL, trying to fight the heat is a losing battle, no matter how stupidly DHS'd your mech is.

[Vladosteron]

I got the Feeling that Messing with the ground stats will not make the Heavy Laz0rs competitive to Pulse or ER Lasers anytime soon.
There is just not room, no sweet spot, for their abilities. Yes they have a very high Damage per Ton. But ERRMLs and LPLs still do a better Laservomit because of Heatlimitations and the high Duration prohibits the good use of HSL and HML in a brawl.

I Suggest the following: Make the Heavy Lasers truly "superior" if you look at the stats, but counter that by high heat and additional drawnbacks: ECM effect on self after firing, Gausslike chargetime without the possibility to stop the charging once started.

Because there is no clear niche the HLs can fill, and we (at least I) don´t want them to replace other lasers by being OP, PGI should Focus on making them different from the existing laserbased weapons.

If the result is "no comp Play for Heavy Laz0rs" I can live with that. but please no more of the same-same.

[AngrySpartan]

Vladosteron, on 01 July 2017 - 11:24 PM, said:

I got the Feeling that Messing with the ground stats will not make the Heavy Laz0rs competitive to Pulse or ER Lasers anytime soon.
There is just not room, no sweet spot, for their abilities. Yes they have a very high Damage per Ton. But ERRMLs and LPLs still do a better Laservomit because of Heatlimitations and the high Duration prohibits the good use of HSL and HML in a brawl.

I Suggest the following: Make the Heavy Lasers truly "superior" if you look at the stats, but counter that by high heat and additional drawnbacks: ECM effect on self after firing, Gausslike chargetime without the possibility to stop the charging once started.

I still don't agree with that. In a pure weapon-to-weapon comparison or boating only single caliber lasers HLL will lose to LPLs and dual ERMLs anyway that's true. But as I suggested in the opening post there is a role where it can compete with LPL or ERLL with tweaked stats.

450 range syncs well with ERMLs and with proper duration (1,35 or even less) and cooldown to make HLL DPS at least comparable to LPL and higher than ERLL I can see it being used. Swapping LPL or couple for HLL will increase your alpha slightly, but will cut the range and with proper HLL stats it will be an acceptable deal.
Next, HLL can be usefull on tonnage starving mechs, like Linebacker. HLL+5ERML gives you 2 more heatsinks over standard LPL+5ERML, so more heat+more heatsinks.
Or (though that will be a lot less effivient) 2HLL+Gauss Timberwolf/Ebon Jaguar. With 2PPC+Gauss now you barely have enough tonnage for heatsinks, and HLL swap will give you 4 extra tons with practically the same heat.

This is a theorycrafting of course, unless PGI will tweak the stats at least to the level I am suggesting, there will be no point in Heavies.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 01 July 2017 - 11:47 PM.

[AngrySpartan]

Tombs Clawtooth, on 01 July 2017 - 10:28 PM, said:

The heat is too much for any sane build that isn't quirked like crazy for energy heat reductions.

A warhawk quirked for -15% heat with 4 HLL, and the rest of the slots filled with heatsinks, was just barely possible to use in a game. While there's plenty of downsides to the HLL, trying to fight the heat is a losing battle, no matter how stupidly DHS'd your mech is.

HLL is not a boating weapon and will never be it, no matter what stats it will receive. The Warwawk example you mentioned - 4PPC/4LPL builds are only possible because because of clan energy weapons low slot requirements. Swap that for HLLs and you will instantly lose space for 2DHS and will receive 4 extra tons you can't spend.
Quad HLL MAD-IIC has the same problem, but it can solve it by giving up Endo and using weight inefficient XL400 to spend every ton. Doesn't matter though, cause LPL is still miles ahead of HLL in terms of effectiveness and heat has nothing to do with that. Quad PPC builds generate almost as much heat.

[Rusharn]

The only real niche that the Heavy lasers can fill in the Clan arsenal is high alpha strike pinpoint damage. Give each heavy laser the same duration as their IS pulse laser counter parts. Leave all the other stats the same. Now you have a weapon that delivers a lot of damage individual shot to a single location, this would make the weapon worthwhile to some clan pilots. Even with this short burn time the over all DPS for a battle would still be low, because of the weapon's high cooldown and high Heat. The heat and number of required crit slots would keep the weapons from being boated in any notable numbers, and the short range limits usefulness on the battle field. But a the mechs that could manage to put a heavy laser on their mech would have a weapon with the effect comparable to the massed IS pulse lasers but only at shorter range with a lot more heat. This would give clan pilots a reason to try a put one or two on a mech, but they would have to press the enemy to get the full effect. A high risk, high reward precision skill style weapon.

[Safari Gepard]

Why PGi trying to do all wrong?
if HML = 1 medium + 1 medium = 2 slots = similar duration. Low range, lower tonnage,because clans,bigger cooldown because 2 lasers. And limit of number guns at least 3 or 4 = 6 or 8 IS medium lasers.

So we need a duration at 1:1 to IS or 1.5:1 because we have less tonnage,but not the 2.0:1, we what the reason to use it that? better to use ERML,more range and similar damage.
If they trying to summ the duration,why they wouldnt to summ a range? (lol)

What we have - we have 2 medium lasers in 2 slots with less weight.
What we need? - 2 x damage,similar range to 1 laser,if we have less weight,we must have little bigger duration,but not a x2. this is not a 2 is meds in 1 slot...
at least 1.5 times so 0.7 + 0.35 = near 1.1 sec. this is bigger than medpulse,but lower than ERMED. why the reason to use HML with lower distance than ERMED and bigger duration? kinda stupid and anti-matematic. better to use ERMED and save 1 slot and have bigger distance.

Why nobody cares that we have SANDWITCH of 2 ISMEDs? 2 slots = 1 tons,why we have so many problems,when we saving only 1 tonn from summ tonnage of IS MEDs?

Why PGI trying to take bad sides of calculating weapons? They trying to summ duration,cooldown and etc,but not taking range and low heat and etc.

oh god,why this is so stupid?

[AngrySpartan]

To make things a bit more representative here are some footage of HSLs and HMLs/HLLs in action. Big thanks to Renegade666, who was willing to be my sparring partner. Duel is not equal to 12v12 match by any means, but comparing same mech with competing loadouts gives a good representation if weapon is competitve or not.

Mirror builds Duel #1: me piloting 10HSL Nova vs. renegade666 piloting 12 microPL Nova. That's not on the footage, but even though I did 2 free salvos in the beginning (so at least 40-60 damage) microPLs did ~80 more damage in the end. With their current DPS HSLs simply not worth it.


Mirror builds Duel #2: we swapped the mechs to make it more representative, now I am piloting 12 microPL Nova and renegade666 piloting 10HSL Nova. Again microPLs did about 100 more damage (and again I derped and stopped recording earlier).
Sidenote: microPL Nova is cold as Ice, whereas HSLs have some heat issues. microPLs gained more and more advantage as the match continued.


Duel #3: XL375 9MPL Mad-II-C (me) vs. 5HML+3HLL Mad-II-C (renegade666). Long burn duration of HLL did not allow my opponent to torso twist, and Heavy lasers insane heat build up limited his damage output. Unsurprisingly Heavy lasers in their current state (especially HLL) are quite useless. Pay attention on final damage score - MPLs did whooping 280 more damage, more than twice than Heavies!!!. Quite impressive even considering that Renegade's build was not optimal IMO.


Duel#4. XL400 8HML Mad-IIC vs. XL400 7MPL Mad-IIC. Even though I was able to win with HMLs, that's only because of better aim and torso twisting in this particular round. Pay attention on the final damage score - MPLs still did approx. 80 more damage on IMHO suboptimal build (XL400 ain't worth the loss of 2MPLs, and renegade's mech was underweight by 1,5t)!


Conclusion: heavy laser's aren't competitive even in the small niche they belong.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 02 July 2017 - 07:43 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

How about combining the HLL with cERML instead of just trying to boat pure Heavies?

[AngrySpartan]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

How about combining the HLL with cERML instead of just trying to boat pure Heavies?

That was the first thing I did while testing HLLs. Their insane duration makes them unusable, I never waited for their burn to finish and just timed my torso twisting and movement with ERMLs duration.

HLLs could be okat when paired with ERMLs, in fact it's 1 of only 2 things they could do on paper, but duration and cooldown makes them non-competitive with LPLs in this role.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 02 July 2017 - 08:07 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

AngrySpartan, on 02 July 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

That was the first thing I did while testing HLLs. Their insane duration makes them unusable, I never waited for their burn to finish and just timed my torso twisting and movement with ERMLs duration.

HLLs could be okat when paired with ERMLs, in fact it's 1 of only 2 things they could do on paper, but duration and cooldown makes them non-competitive with LPLs in this role.

See, I'm with you in that I think the duration could be reduced. Where you lose me is on cool-down, except for the smalls, which are basically unusable in their bracket.

Heavy Lasers are not for Assaults. They aren't for 'Mechs with lots of guns. That's the point. That's their niche. Boating them on a MAD IIC sucks, and I am not convinced that is a bad thing. Rather, it's by design. Where they do well is on a 'Mech like the SHC or the MLX. The extra duration really hurts them, because the reason they brought those guns in the first place was because they can't bring a critical mass of the otherwise superior ER or Pulse lasers, and giving them guns that reach good damage but not as fast kind of defeats the point. The cool-down, however, is not as crucial, because 'Mechs like that are poking intermittently or don't have the heat capacity to fire any faster in the first place. They could lower the cool-down, but then they'd have to increase the heat to maintain the inability for 'Mechs like the MAD-IIC to boat them.

[AngrySpartan]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

See, I'm with you in that I think the duration could be reduced. Where you lose me is on cool-down, except for the smalls, which are basically unusable in their bracket.

Heavy Lasers are not for Assaults. They aren't for 'Mechs with lots of guns. That's the point. That's their niche. Boating them on a MAD IIC sucks, and I am not convinced that is a bad thing. Rather, it's by design. Where they do well is on a 'Mech like the SHC or the MLX. The extra duration really hurts them, because the reason they brought those guns in the first place was because they can't bring a critical mass of the otherwise superior ER or Pulse lasers, and giving them guns that reach good damage but not as fast kind of defeats the point. The cool-down, however, is not as crucial, because 'Mechs like that are poking intermittently or don't have the heat capacity to fire any faster in the first place. They could lower the cool-down, but then they'd have to increase the heat to maintain the inability for 'Mechs like the MAD-IIC to boat them.

Our opinion's on that aren't that different. Even Mad-II-C can't boat them better than any other weapon system.For 8 HML build I had to sacrifice Endo and put weight inefficient XL400 instead of 375, under normal circustances it makes very little sense. And it's still hot as hell's final circle - 2 alphas and heat is ctitical (and in HMLs particular case I am in favor of slight heat increase). You're still better of with 375xl, Endo and 9MPLs. Or even 9 ERMLs if you really want that XL400.

HLLs - you can't afford more than two of them anyway, they are 3 slots, so you have weight but no space. And space worth a lot more than weight with weapon that hot.

Considering cooldowns and limited hardpoints:
yes, that's where Heavy's strenth is. But why would you ever put 3 HML/2HLL on a Shadow Cat if 3ERML/2LPL would be better in every way! More accurate, more DPS, more range, better heat efficiency. Eve in my suggested stat's they still have higher cooldown and lower DPS than pulse version, but same or slightly better than ER's. Noone can predict how they wil perform if they'll ever receive buff I want to see, that's why we have a PTS.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 02 July 2017 - 08:34 AM.