21 replies to this topic

[PraetorGix]

Not sure if it's the right place to post this, but anyway. I am a long-time Mechwarrior player with basic knowledge about BT lore, and I just recently started to read the novels to get a deeper understanding of the BT universe. I had a question for some time now and I guess this is a good place to ask it.

I would like to know, if the Wolf's Dragoons were sent as an advance/scouting force by the clans, why in the nine hells they ended up fighting against clanners in the invasion? Did something happened in the time before the invasion that made Jaime Wolf change his mind? Also, besides any answers you people might give me, is there any novel or text that I could read about this particular topic?

Thx very much

[Mason Grimm]

Since this isn't directly related to MWO I've moved it to "Off Topic Discussions" (there is a spot for every house but not really a spot for mercenary stuff).

[CaveMan]

One of the Clan Wolf khans (I believe Ulric Kerensky's predecessor) in the 3030s or so gave the Dragoons secret new marching orders.

Said khan realized that an invasion of the inner sphere was all but inevitable due to the way the wind was blowing in the Grand Council (note that Clan Wolf was strongly Warden at that time and was therefore opposed to invasion), and he instructed the Dragoons to go about preparing the Inner Sphere to resist the Clans. This was done because it was felt that the Inner Sphere had fallen so far behind technologically and was so divided, that the Clans would smash the IS defenses in a matter of months and totally subjugate the IS.

It should also be noted that most of the original Dragoons who arrived in 3002 were dead or gone by 3050, killed either in the Marik civil war in the 3010s, the fighting against the Draconis Combine in the 3020s, or by slow attrition over the years; or they were just too old to be effective, had settled down with families, etc. Natasha Kerensky herself was in her early 30s when they left the Clan homeworlds, so she was quite elderly in 3050 and didnt have the influence in the Dragoons she'd had in the past. I suspect that's part of the reason she alone returned to the Clans to guide the Wolves and seek an honorable death.

Most of the Dragoons' fighting men in 3050 were recruits from the Inner Sphere, or war orphans raised by the Dragoons. Only the inner circle were Clan personnel at that point.

Edited by CaveMan, 18 December 2011 - 11:20 PM.

[PraetorGix]

I see. I will research a bit about this Wolf Khan to see if there's more detail about those orders you mention. thx for the info!

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

You also have to remember that The Clanners of Wolfs Dragoons were mainly Freeborn. Natasha Kerensky the Black Widow ran The Black Widow Company within the Dragoons until the Invasion.
http://www.sarna.net.../Wolfs_dragoons

[Mason Grimm]

Cmdr. Hurrell, on 18 December 2011 - 11:34 PM, said:

I see. I will research a bit about this Wolf Khan to see if there's more detail about those orders you mention. thx for the info!

Start with Sarna.net or better yet read the Blood of Kerensky series. It is explained a little in there.

[Cyber Carns]

Also if you read the Clan Wolf source book it will explain it in there as well.

[John Clavell]

Cmdr. Hurrell, on 18 December 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Not sure if it's the right place to post this, but anyway. I am a long-time Mechwarrior player with basic knowledge about BT lore, and I just recently started to read the novels to get a deeper understanding of the BT universe. I had a question for some time now and I guess this is a good place to ask it.

I would like to know, if the Wolf's Dragoons were sent as an advance/scouting force by the clans, why in the nine hells they ended up fighting against clanners in the invasion? Did something happened in the time before the invasion that made Jaime Wolf change his mind? Also, besides any answers you people might give me, is there any novel or text that I could read about this particular topic?

Thx very much

The 'Great Debate' as it was called, had been raging for a long time among the Clans. This debate was of course about the invasion of the Inner Sphere. The Crusaders wanted to invade, and in the year 3000, on the 11th of November, Ghost Bear Khan, Nadia Winson pushed the issue in the Grand Council. Clan Wolf, who were the figure heads of the Warden Clans, lead by Khan Kerlin Ward sought to stall the Crusader Clans desire for Invasion. As a result he proposed that due to lack of contact between the Clans and the Inner Sphere for some 200 years a recon mission should be dispatched to find out the state of affairs posing as Mercenaries. This plan was passed, however some of the Clans did not like the idea of Clan Wolf effectively having the first shot as fighting the Spheroids. Clan Nova Cat and Clan Smoke Jaguar argued that what amounted to a spy mission was not a worthy undertaking for true-born warriors, and so it came to pass that freeborn warriors would man and lead the mission, and so the Wolf Dragoons were born.

Khan Kerlin Ward though realised that this would only prevent the invasion of the Inner Sphere by the Crusader Clans for so long. And so, Khan Ward devised a plan to prepare the Inner Sphere for the coming invasion. He chose warriors to join the Dragoons who were freeborns, iconoclasts, and in some cases ardent Warden trueborns.

Jamie and Joshua, brothers, who at the time were under direct command of Star Colonel Natasha Kerensky, of the 328th Assault Cluster of Clan Wolf were picked to lead the Dragoons. It's known that Natasha Kerensky and Joshua were in a relationship, becoming lovers form 3010 onwards. I don't know if prior to 3004 the two had feelings, but it may well of formed a bases for Natasha to join the Dragoons. She was willing to take a demotion to join the Dragoons, which does at least suggest she was not a typical clan warrior, throwing away a good carrier. However it is to be noted she was known as a hot head and a troublemaker, she may well of just seen the chance to seek glory in the Inner Sphere as a bigger challenge than what she was doing at the time. From what I understand, like Ulric later did with Kell, Khan Kerlin Ward elevated the surname Wolf to that of a Bloodname, even though later in life Jamie Wolf would shrug off the need for such things.

After training with the Heartvenom Cluster of Clan Goliath Scorpion, the Dragoons left for the Inner Sphere. Before landing in 3005 they mothballed their Warships and Advanced Clantech around 'Bristol'. As we all know the Dragoons worked for the Houses of Davion, Liao, and Marik when finally in 3019 the Dragoons made their final resupply mission to the Clan Homeworlds. It was during this last visit to Clan space that Jaime Wolf and Natasha Kerensky met with Khan Kerlin Ward and his designated successor Ulric Kerensky. Khan Ward informed the two Dragoons that the Clan invasion would come sooner than he had hoped and that he didn't think he could delay it much longer.

As a result, he issued secret orders to the two, including the command to obey no other Khan than himself. Jaime and Natasha were to shift the focus of their mission from gathering intelligence to actively preparing the Inner Sphere for the coming invasion. To this end, he presented them with blueprints and manufacturing specifications for Clan OmniMechs and other technology, the equipment necessary to begin their own Clan-like breeding program, and archival information on the world of Outreach, which had once been home to the Star League's Martial Olympiads and possibly still contained advanced manufacturing capabilities. With that, Jaime and Natasha severed the Dragoons from their parent Clan and began preparing for the invasion.

Preparations for the Clan invasion never really got into full swing until after the end of the 4th Succession War. Once on Outreach, things changed. The Dragoons rebuilt. In 3035 Natasha Kerensky and the Black Widow Battalion were recalled to Outreach. Over the next 7 years the Black Widow Battalion trained the new Dragoon warriors. At some point between 3042 and 3049 or maybe prior the Black Widow Battalion was reformed into a full Trinary, preparing the Dragoons to fight against Clan tactics again.

By the time the Clan invasion arrived, in 3049, the Dragoons were ready. Once word of the invasion reached Jaime Wolf, he recalled all of his Dragoons to Outreach, where they debated on what course of action they should take. It was decided that the Dragoons were now a part of the Inner Sphere rather than the Clans and that they should join the fight against their former brethren. To this end, Wolf used the opportunity provided by the sudden death of the Clan ilKhan and the subsequent lull in the invasion to gather the rulers of the Successor States on Outreach, where he revealed the origin of the Dragoons and pledged their assistance against the Clans. This occasion was only marred by the absence of Natasha Kerensky, who had heeded the recall of all Clan Bloodnamed warriors in the wake of ilKhan Showers' death and returned to Clan Wolf, where she hoped to strengthen the Warden cause and work against the invasion from within. One of her first acts was to defend the right of the Dragoons to have their genetic legacies inducted into the Clan breeding program, as had long ago been promised as a reward for undertaking the Dragoon mission. During her defense of the Dragoons, Natasha reported the secret instructions given by Khan Kerlin Ward in 3019, finally revealing the hidden agenda of the original Compromise nearly half a century before.

I'd like to note that while the Dragoons ultimately chose to call the Inner Sphere their home, they had no desire to see the Clans destroyed by the hands of the Inner Sphere. They actively helped the Inner Sphere to defend themselves. And fought against Crusader elements of the Clans. But they also kept certain information secret so to protect the Clans. Hence why they deleted all the Clan star charts they had originally brought with them. If I remember correctly Jamie Wolf even felt some sorrow on knowing he might never see his homeworld of Eden again.

CaveMan, on 18 December 2011 - 11:14 PM, said:

One of the Clan Wolf khans (I believe Ulric Kerensky's predecessor) in the 3030s or so gave the Dragoons secret new marching orders.

Said khan realized that an invasion of the inner sphere was all but inevitable due to the way the wind was blowing in the Grand Council (note that Clan Wolf was strongly Warden at that time and was therefore opposed to invasion), and he instructed the Dragoons to go about preparing the Inner Sphere to resist the Clans. This was done because it was felt that the Inner Sphere had fallen so far behind technologically and was so divided, that the Clans would smash the IS defenses in a matter of months and totally subjugate the IS.

It should also be noted that most of the original Dragoons who arrived in 3002 were dead or gone by 3050, killed either in the Marik civil war in the 3010s, the fighting against the Draconis Combine in the 3020s, or by slow attrition over the years; or they were just too old to be effective, had settled down with families, etc. Natasha Kerensky herself was in her early 30s when they left the Clan homeworlds, so she was quite elderly in 3050 and didnt have the influence in the Dragoons she'd had in the past. I suspect that's part of the reason she alone returned to the Clans to guide the Wolves and seek an honorable death.

Most of the Dragoons' fighting men in 3050 were recruits from the Inner Sphere, or war orphans raised by the Dragoons. Only the inner circle were Clan personnel at that point.

Please read above for some corrections to your information. No offence intended. In 3050 Natasha was aged 77, and had by this stage setup to return to the Clans. She was born in 2973, making her between 31 & 32 when the Dragoons left for the Inner Sphere in 3004. Her rank within the Dragoons come 3049 was Colonel, which she had been promoted to in 3031. Even prior to this, she always commanded more respect and the ears of higher ranked personal within the Dragoons than her given rank would suggest. She returned to the Clans to help the Warden cause, believing she could do it more effectively from within the Clans, than from without. 77 is not really that old in Battletech, and Natasha certainly proved that once returning to Clan Wolf. Reading about her and Phalen Kells trials for their Bloodnames goes to show how even at almost 80 years old Natasha was still the writers best friend

The Dragoons did indeed lose many lives during the 4th Succession War, in fact losing more than they would during the Jihad. However even at this stage many of the original personal who came with the Dragoons in 3004 still were part of the unit. Hans Vordel, and John Clavell being two names off the top of my head. Many of the Dragoons come 3049 are war orphans, and part of the Dragoon 'ironwomb' program.

Not all of the original members of the Dragoons were in higher command positions. But obviously the commanders of the Dragoons were indeed original members from 3004 or highly experienced members from the 3rd and 4th Succession Wars.

Edited by John Clavell, 19 December 2011 - 09:07 AM.

[Threat Doc]

Mason Grimm, on 19 December 2011 - 04:52 AM, said:

Start with Sarna.net or better yet read the Blood of Kerensky series. It is explained a little in there.

I think it's awesome you guys support the web sites that have been made available by fans, with information such as this. Cool beans.

CaveMan and John Clavell... very nicely done on both your parts. Extremely detailed.

[guardian wolf]

Also another fact that you guys missed, is that when Clan Wolf went into exile the Wolf's Dragoons actually reestablished contact, at least I think that's what happened.

[John Clavell]

guardian wolf, on 19 December 2011 - 09:20 AM, said:

Also another fact that you guys missed, is that when Clan Wolf went into exile the Wolf's Dragoons actually reestablished contact, at least I think that's what happened.

This is the case. However, I've always found there to be a serious lack of good information on the Dragoons post 'Wolf Pack' and pre-Jihad. But I did not discuss this as it was outside of the OP's question about why the Dragoons faced off against the Clans instead of supporting them directly during the invasion.

[feor]

Wolf's Dragoons were also not exclusively from Clan Wolf, Cranston Snord is rumored to have been a Goliath Scorpion. Both due to his fascination with Star League artifacts and his perpetual pipe.

It's likely there were individuals from other clans in the organization as well, though I imagine any who were Crusaders were lost to "attrition" long before the clans properly returned.

[CaveMan]

John Clavell, on 19 December 2011 - 07:03 AM, said:

Please read above for some corrections to your information. No offence intended.

Hey, I'd say I'm doing pretty good for recalling information I haven't used in the better part of a decade

I do remember in one of the books (might've been Wolves on the Border or one of the Warrior books) someone pointing out Natasha's actual age to a younger IS character considering hitting on her in a bar, and the kid's jaw hitting the floor, realizing she could've been his grandma. Obviously thanks to Clan genetics she didn't look her age, but she was pretty old to be running around fighting wars, by IS standards.

By Clan standards she was an ancient relic in 3050, given that they start pushing you toward a solahma unit at around 30 if you haven't won a Bloodname, and you're expected to be dead before 40 unless you're a khan or a loremaster.

[Jaroth Corbett]

You should read the Wolf Dragoons Sourcebook.

[John Clavell]

CaveMan, on 19 December 2011 - 11:50 AM, said:

Hey, I'd say I'm doing pretty good for recalling information I haven't used in the better part of a decade

I do remember in one of the books (might've been Wolves on the Border or one of the Warrior books) someone pointing out Natasha's actual age to a younger IS character considering hitting on her in a bar, and the kid's jaw hitting the floor, realizing she could've been his grandma. Obviously thanks to Clan genetics she didn't look her age, but she was pretty old to be running around fighting wars, by IS standards.

Yeah man, I did not mean any disrespect. Like Cranston Snord, I'm slightly obsessed with everything Wolf's Dragoons, like he was with his art collection. One thing I'm not sure about is the rank Natasha Kerensky held prior to her joining the Dragoons. There is conflicting information, and I don't have the Clan Source books to check up on it. It was either Star Captain or Star Colonel. The fact she has cosmetic surgery on many occasions would not of helped. She obviously cared about her appearance

[John Clavell]

Jaroth Winson, on 19 December 2011 - 12:06 PM, said:

You should read the Wolf Dragoons Sourcebook.

I have it on pdf, stuck on my old PC hard drive, I keep meaning to recover it. So I've not read it it in some time. I also have 'Tales of the Black Widow' both are excellent sourcebooks. However, I do wish CGL would release a new dedicated Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook with updated information on the unit between 3055 - 3065.

[CaveMan]

Star Colonel would be a better fit, given her age (and the fact that she's always presented as a 0/0 or 0/1 pilot, Jesus H. Christ that woman is deadly) before the mission took off. There's also the issue of Jaime Wolf being given command of something like a Galaxy worth of troops by Clan standards, even if they are secondline ones. He'd need somebody with field-grade experience to show him the ropes.

[John Clavell]

CaveMan, on 19 December 2011 - 12:17 PM, said:

Star Colonel would be a better fit, given her age (and the fact that she's always presented as a 0/0 or 0/1 pilot, Jesus H. Christ that woman is deadly) before the mission took off. There's also the issue of Jaime Wolf being given command of something like a Galaxy worth of troops by Clan standards, even if they are secondline ones. He'd need somebody with field-grade experience to show him the ropes.

I don't have any of the Clan Source books to check this out. But pulling it from Sarna.

At age ten he was tested and accepted into the Warrior caste, and assigned to Gamma Ten Freeborn Sibko. He piloted an antiquated Archer in his Trial of Position where he disabled a trueborn-piloted Nova. Subsequently, he was assigned to the Choyer Garrison Cluster in 3000, where he distinguished himself in the defense against Clan Nova Cat forces when his Cluster defeated a Trinary in a Trial of Possession over mineral rights on Circe. He then rose to the rank of Star Commander in the 328th Assault Cluster under Star Captain Natasha Kerensky. Following his performance against Clan Diamond Shark on Paxton and Clan Jade Falcon on Eden, he easily tested up for Star Captain following Ulric Natasha Kerensky's promotion to Star Colonel in 3003.

Though as always there is some serious discrepancy on the information Sarna has in this case. Ulric was born in 2997, I doubt he was given the rank of Star Colonel by 3003 at the age of 6. He never even had a Boodname until he was 30. I'll assume that Ulric Kerensky should in fact read as Natasha Kerensky in this instance.

This also raises questions over the times and dates of the formation and training of the Dragoons. Most of the standard sourcebook material points to the unit being formed and trained between 3000 - 3004. So I'm unsure on him being in the 328th Assault Cluster by this point in time. It's possible he was given a promotion to Star Captain, however, it does seem unlikely if he was taking command of some 5 line regiments. It's referenced that Natasha Kerensky took a demotion to the rank of point commander in joining the Wolf Dragoon mission.

Edited by John Clavell, 19 December 2011 - 12:58 PM.

[PraetorGix]

Wow, lots of info. Thanks very much for your responses all, specially caveman and Clavell. I am just about to start reading the blood of Kerensky books. I will start hunting for the other texts you mentioned, specially the clan ones. Ever since MW2 I've been a warden at heart ^^

[Stormwolf]

Cmdr. Hurrell, on 19 December 2011 - 02:55 PM, said:

Wow, lots of info. Thanks very much for your responses all, specially caveman and Clavell. I am just about to start reading the blood of Kerensky books. I will start hunting for the other texts you mentioned, specially the clan ones. Ever since MW2 I've been a warden at heart ^^

Very good, the events in Blood of Kerensky are going to be the catalyst for the Refusal War (depicted in MW2), the puzzle pieces are going to fit together when you get near the end.

Edited by Stormwolf, 19 December 2011 - 04:30 PM.