9 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Since the patch, I've been experimenting primarily with ClamTech, as it seemed the worse off overall - there's problems IS side, but a lot of good options.

So, my test mech has primarily been a Timberwolf Prime, sporting 2xATM6, 2xHLL, and 3xHMG. Bracketish, sure - it's not an great build - but it allowed me to get some time with the Worst Offenders (HLL, ATM) and not be gimped if someone pushed inside the ATM min range. With a 120m minimum now, I could discourage face hugging with the 3xHMG at minimal investment - get inside the 120m and you're eating 4dps from the HMG's and the 32 damage laser alphas.

HMG:

The HMG nerf was fairly deserved, and doesn't wreck them - the DPS change is very minor, and the crit damage change just slows the massive DPS gain on structure - pretty reasonable, really. Still, even three did pretty substantial damage once things got up close and personal.

Effective, but I caution people to consider ammo counts. In our 4v4 PTS, the ammo feels fine, but once we get to 12v12 I suspect people are going to be burning through a lot more.

ATM:

Ahhh, ATM's, the red-headed stepchild of the Clan's lineup on the original PTS build. On paper/in the testing grounds, very strong, but in practice so difficult to actually use effectively and so easily foiled by a non-potato opponent. With the range extensions of the 3 damage bracket each way, they're substantially more usable. 120-270m 3 damage range, and 270-320 scaling down to 2 damage, there's 200 meters of over 2 damage per missile. That's a much more useful range. They're still big, heavy, and hot - for pure brawling SRM's are much stronger. However, paired with the HLL's the ATM's are allowing a 60 damage strike even outside the ATM sweet spot, so you're able to fight effectively at mid to (moderately) long range.

The 2xATM6 in the sweet spot are pushing 36 damage - Hurty indeed, for just two smaller launchers - 7 tons.

I'd still like to see the ATM's having a exponential damage falloff inside the minimum range in the same way Clan LRM's work - it's really frustrating when weapons go from full to zero damage instantly. This for all weapons, too, btw, in both factions.

But at least now, you can get more practical use out of the ATM sweet spot. Before, lock on times, relative movement, and all that tended to put mechs inside or outside the range before you'd have a chance to fire more than once. With a 120m min range, it's a lot harder for an enemy to effectively push inside the ATM range - doing so will often expose him unnecessarily, unless he's involved in a full brawling push.

HLL:

The 1.55s burn is still long, but that decrease helps a lot. Overall DPS remains the same, but per-tick damage increases so partial burns do more damage. At this point, I'm still undecided whether I like them or not, but given the massive damage overall they're not so cripplingly bad. There's definitely a point where long burns are just plain not fun, and while the HLL's post-patch are close to that, they do feel under it now. At 1.7s, it was just horrible.

With that said, I'm not really taken on HLL's vs. simply packing more lighter lasers. 2 HLL's gets you 32 damage at 34 heat, while 4 ERML's gets you 28 damage at 24 heat(comparable range), or 4 MPL's getting you 30 damage at 20 heat(somewhat shorter range). Both options cost fewer slots (typically the big restriction for clam mechs) and less/equal tonnage.

The HLL's have the benefit of using fewer energy hardpoints, but that's rarely a limitation that Clam mechs suffer with excepting, perhaps, some IIC models.

So, if you only have a couple energy hardpoints and want a heavy strike? Well, now you're deciding between ERPPC's and HLL's. 20pp+10spread vs 32mixed damage. Realistically, you're going to spread more damage with the HLL's under most common situations, unless you've got really great aim. The ERPPC's are cooler (!!) at 28 vs. 34 heat, but do run the risk of zero damage vs. partial damage, depending on your accuracy with them. An extra 4 tons, but 2 fewer slots.

So, to sum this up:

HLL's aren't terrible now, but they're still a sub par choice in basically every situation. The do increase options on hardpoint limited mechs for players with weaker aim, however.

[Pariah Devalis]

Agreed. ATM are more usable now. Not quite where they should be, IMO, but they are a lot more usable. They are hot as hell, though! While I still think they shouldn't have a minimum range, a scaling minimum damage drop off would be fine. However, I feel they need a higher velocity - somewhere between SRM and LRM - and HP per missile increased by quite a bit. Even a single AMS can swat multiple ATM3s out of the air effortlessly.

As for heavy lasers, I still don't think I'd use the Heavy Smalls, but the Heavy Mediums and Heavy Larges feel pretty good now. I think I'd like to see their cooldown between shots decreased slightly, however. Their heat generated is their biggest limiter, but being able to pump out an extra shot if you had to instead of putting shots in between reading chapters of War And Peace would be nice.

Similarly, the cooldown on the uER and uPulse feels like it takes too long, and it would be nice if the uPulse did 3.5 damage instead of the same 3 damage as the uER, considering it's half the range and twice the weight at only a fraction shorter a burn duration.

[Wintersdark]

Pariah Devalis, on 01 July 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

Agreed. ATM are more usable now. Not quite where they should be, IMO, but they are a lot more usable. They are hot as hell, though! While I still think they shouldn't have a minimum range, a scaling minimum damage drop off would be fine. However, I feel they need a higher velocity - somewhere between SRM and LRM - and HP per missile increased by quite a bit. Even a single AMS can swat multiple ATM3s out of the air effortlessly.

As for heavy lasers, I still don't think I'd use the Heavy Smalls, but the Heavy Mediums and Heavy Larges feel pretty good now. I think I'd like to see their cooldown between shots decreased slightly, however. Their heat generated is their biggest limiter, but being able to pump out an extra shot if you had to instead of putting shots in between reading chapters of War And Peace would be nice.

Similarly, the cooldown on the uER and uPulse feels like it takes too long, and it would be nice if the uPulse did 3.5 damage instead of the same 3 damage as the uER, considering it's half the range and twice the weight at only a fraction shorter a burn duration.

For the Heavy Large, why would you ever use it vs. 4 ERML/MPL, or 2 ERPPC/LPL (when hardpoint limited)? I've been working at the math, and it's simply worse than all the options in almost every situation.


But for the ATM's, yeah. They're usable now, but still easily rendered useless and the ammo counts are still an issue. I'm OK with the heat (it prevents ATM's from being brutal close combat weapons more than the minimum range does) but as it stands if you're firing at longer ranges, you burn ammo really fast.

They REALLY need a health-per-missile increase, because you're packing all the damage into very few missiles. Even single missile losses dramatical decrease the weapon effectiveness.


Sadly, that's where a lot of the "Theorycrafting" for "Wow! ATM's are AWESOME!" goes wrong.

In practice - that is, not just lobbing alphas in the testing grounds - the ATM spread results in missed missiles. People moving, twisting, etc - the spread is wide, so a target simply twisted sideways will avoid roughly 1/3 of the incoming damage by default. The same applies for small mechs not twisting at all. A single AMS severely degrades usefulness; multiple AMS completely block the weapon.

And while when you look at weapon stats, it's easy to imagine mechs running lots of large ATM launchers, in practice the large ATM launchers are only used by heavy assaults with few missile hardpoints. I couldn't get more than 2 ATM6 reasonably into a Timberwolf.

And that's in 4v4. Going to 12v12, ammo counts are going to be a really serious limiting factor.

I've been playing around with a KDK1 mounting 2 ATM12's. With 6t of ammo, I'm running out way earlier than I'd like. To the point where now, I'm simply never firing when I won't get at least 2 damage: 72 damage per ton/slot is terrible; so bad it's not worth firing at all.

Edited by Wintersdark, 01 July 2017 - 07:16 AM.

[MischiefSC]

ATMs need a velocity buff. Did they get it?

[ChapeL]

Missile health on ATMs must go up. All it takes is a single mech with ams in the enemy lance to completely negate a single ATM3-6-9. I'm still not convinced I'll ever find a reason to equip them once live. They are a compromise weapon and as such will probably be left in a state where they are somewhat worse ( call it less optimal ) than either SRMs or LRMs. ( which is ok ) They do less damage and are slower than LRMs at long range and they do more damage and require a lock at short range. I still think the dead zone needs to go. Needing a lock in a brawl ( and you want to lock since the missiles are so slow ) is more than enough for SRMs to be the superior choice in that situation.

As it stands now, the only time I can imagine being happy my mech has ATMs is if I drop in a brawler setup and get voted on Polar highlands.

[MischiefSC]

They need SRM health.

[Cy Mitchell]

I would like to see an increase in velocity and a ramp down in damage similar to what the IS HPPC got under 120m. A projectile speed of 200-250 with a flat trajectory would be preferable over the LRM like speed and trajectory that we now have. That way the missiles would get to the target faster but would not be useful for shooting over obstructions.

[FireStoat]

I've tested the weapon system again and I still won't be using it. The missiles are too fragile for how many are fired from a rack, I'm not a fan of the variable missile damage scaled by range, and 120m deadzone is still too large a space for a weapon intended for its best damage to be used below the 400m range. On top of this, the ammo count is pitiful.

This might sound harsh but I have A+SRM and A+LRM missiles to consider when developing a loadout and... dare I say it... both of those weapon systems do what they're supposed to within the limits of their intended use. ATM's when put to their intended use have too many negative factors a player has to keep track of. No thanks.

[Gentleman Reaper]

I've been proposing a dynamic spread for ATMs, where the spread gets tighter the further the missile travels, right now the static spread simply confounds the issue of ATMs not being fired at range due to limited damage.

[Andi Nagasia]

psrsonally i feel both ATMs and LRMs need their Velicity to be increased to 240,
the 120m min range though may need some more work, i think its in a good place to go live with,
stats can always change when we have 12v12 team tests,