14 replies to this topic

[Zelumbras]

The rules in the current heat penalty system (aka "Ghost Heat") worked decently well while there were only few different weapons in one linked penalty group. However, with many new weapons introduced in this PTS, the shortcomings of the current system become more and more apparent.

My suggestion is to take some of the elements of the Energy Draw system to enhance the current system without making it more complex. Also, to make it easier to talk/write about this, i'll just call this suggestion "Advanced Tactical Heat System" or ATHS in short.

In the ATHS there isn't a fixed amount of weapons you can fire at the same time but rather each weapon of the linked penalty group has a weighting factor associated with it. When going over a cumultative sum, ghost heat is incurred depending on how far the limit was bypassed.


Example: IS PPC linked penalty group ATHS-ratings:

• Light PPC: 1
  
• Snub Nose PPC / PPC / ERPPC: 2
  
• Heavy PPC: 3

Limit for this group: 4 (4)

This means you could fire any combination at once that does not go over 4 (4). For example any of these combinations would incur no penalty:

• 4x L-PPC
  
• 1x H-PPC + 1x L-PPC
  
• 2 ERPPC
  
• 1x SN-PPC + 2 L-PPC

To communicate a weapons ATHS-rating, it would be of course be beneficial to add the respective value to the tooltip in the mechlab like for example "ATHS (PPC): 2(4)" for an IS Snub Nose PPC, "ATHS (LASER): 2(12)" for an IS Medium Laser or "ATHS (MRM): 3(7)" for a MRM-30.


Basically the same system could be used for Gauss charges as well, where the maximum amount of (different) cannons charged at the same time is determined by their ATHS-rating.


I believe that a system like that would be more intuitive to understand than either the current Ghost Heat or the Energy Draw system. At the same time it could greatly simplify the balancing when adding new weapon types into an existing group.

Edited by Zelumbras, 01 July 2017 - 06:58 AM.

[Appuagab]

This is very good suggestion, it's certainly way more logical than current system, but I strongly disagree with one part:

Zelumbras, on 01 July 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

The rules in the current heat penalty system (aka "Ghost Heat") worked decently well

Ha-ha, nope, it never worked well and always felt like a placeholder. Just like it is going to happen with new tech (if PGI won't fix it), current tech meta is focused around a few completely arbitrary sets of weapons like 6xC-ERML+2xC-LPL. New tech will just stress this problem further.

P. S. Also check my (a bit overcomplicated) thoughts about possible heat penalties solution. https://mwomercs.com...d-improvements/

[ADI84000]

ghost heat.... is bad.... and yea they say well an assault mech can fire 7 er large and roast me under 2 seconds... its an 100 ton assault mech... its supposed to do that.... i mean if we ballance a locust vs a direwolf... well then thats really bad

[Furball72]

I'd rather see them completely revamp heat... not just do away with ghost heat, but bring in reticle-shake as heat increases, making it more difficult to hit the target, and for the shaking to get more violent as the heat gets closer to 100%. Something akin to a jumping mech's reticle, but more pronounced.

This would increase the amount of attention players pay to managing their heat, and reduce monstrosities like assault mechs firing a half-dozen large lasers all at once.

[Nesutizale]

Furball72, on 01 July 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

I'd rather see them completely revamp heat... not just do away with ghost heat, but bring in reticle-shake as heat increases, making it more difficult to hit the target, and for the shaking to get more violent as the heat gets closer to 100%. Something akin to a jumping mech's reticle, but more pronounced.

This would increase the amount of attention players pay to managing their heat, and reduce monstrosities like assault mechs firing a half-dozen large lasers all at once.

That would only count for continouse fire but not for high alphas. They would still have to problem with firing as the heat is only applied later on.
Pinpoint accurate shots from the start are more of a problem. When the only way to get a pinpoint shot would be that you have to stand still and your target too, then high alphas along with the heatscale drawback you think of would be a problem.

But as everyone wants to have his pinpoint accuracy because reasons we will have to deal with ghostheat.

Targeting has to be more difficulte in general and with rising heat it would become more problematic, the mech would move/turn/twist slower and ammo can explode. That would be a good reason to keep your heat in check. Most likely people will start to build mechs that don't have that high alpha potential in the first place.

Edited by Nesutizale, 01 July 2017 - 10:05 AM.

[Baulven]

ADI84000, on 01 July 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

ghost heat.... is bad.... and yea they say well an assault mech can fire 7 er large and roast me under 2 seconds... its an 100 ton assault mech... its supposed to do that.... i mean if we ballance a locust vs a direwolf... well then thats really bad

Actually that setup versus a locusts will make you an easy kill. Long burn time versus nimble opponents generally means you do little damage while it gnats your knees off.

[Brain Cancer]

The PTS actually has made a very good case that the most potent anti-alpha option is spread.

Ten PPC hits to one location can kill. Ten PPC hits to three locations might not. Ten PPC hits to five locations probably won't.

[Zelumbras]

Furball72, on 01 July 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

I'd rather see them completely revamp heat... not just do away with ghost heat, ...

I fully agree on that! The Ghost Heat system does decent in terms of punishing 'Mechs that boat certain weapon types for an immense alpha strike. But other than that, it is somewhat unintuitive and has many flaws. Some of these flaws just got more highlighted with the introduction of the new tech since there are now considerably more different weapons in a linked penalty group.

However, what we also need to consider is, that a complete redesign of the heat system takes time for development and balancing and ties up resources in different areas. With the new tech coming in a few weeks and a (likely) tight schedule, it strikes me not as realistic that the developers could make it if they tried to rework the current system extensively in this short time period.

The ATHS i suggested is meant as more of an immediate fix to some of the apparent problems of the current system. I believe that something like this is more realistic to make it in time for the release since it is comparably easy and fast to implement:

Essentially, you only need to add another variable as a multiplier each to the maximum number of weapons fired before Ghost Heat as well as to the individual weapon type.
All other formulae as well as the code mechanics don't have to be changed for this.

Edited by Zelumbras, 01 July 2017 - 01:45 PM.

[FupDup]

So basically it's like Energy Draw, but each group stays isolated rather than globally linked.

[davoodoo]

Sounds sensible.
If nothing more its an actual improvement over ghost heat, unlike energy draw which can go **** itself.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 July 2017 - 01:48 PM.

[Rusharn]

I think the biggest issue is that double heat sinks do not increase heat dissipation but they actually massively increase the heat capacity of the mech. If the increase to the heat capacity of the double heat sinks was removed, that would do more to deter heavy alphas then anything else.

[davoodoo]

Rusharn, on 03 July 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

I think the biggest issue is that double heat sinks do not increase heat dissipation but they actually massively increase the heat capacity of the mech. If the increase to the heat capacity of the double heat sinks was removed, that would do more to deter heavy alphas then anything else.

If heat capacity was removed, then it would be violation of tt rules.

Heat capacity is direct equivalent of tt heatsinks taking heat in moment of firing.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellstar
this thing had 6 heat dissipation per second and 90 heat capacity.

The problem with dhs in mwo is that not only there arent true dubs as even is ones only dissipate 0.15/s(0.2/s in engine) and have capacity of 1.5 but also all cooldown are more than doubled.
4s ppc cd on 75% effective dhs??Well then, now dhs work at 30% efficiency of their tt counterparts. No wonder dps is dead.

Edited by davoodoo, 04 July 2017 - 02:35 AM.

[Twinkleblade]

I would prefer ED just for energy weapons and gauss. Keep ghost heat for missiles and ballistics until a new solution is found.

[Savage Wolf]

ADI84000, on 01 July 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

ghost heat.... is bad.... and yea they say well an assault mech can fire 7 er large and roast me under 2 seconds... its an 100 ton assault mech... its supposed to do that.... i mean if we ballance a locust vs a direwolf... well then thats really bad

Unless I can take 5 Locusts for every Direwolf or Kodiak that is exactly what we have to do and why heat was changed for MWO to begin with. That's the problem with trying to convert a game where more tons meant better mechs into a shooter where everyone needs to be equal.
Otherwise MWO would turn into Assault Mech-warrior Online.

[Last Of The Brunnen-G]

Just a little suggestion from me to bring more balance into your ATHS. At the current state we have many mechs, that have quirks to help them with their design flaws. If you ad an individual heat penalty treashold for every mech dependend on tonnage and quirks, you can remove all weapon quirks.

For example nearly all clan mechs would have a lower treashold than is mechs. Mechs like the rifleman, jagermech, battlemaster.... with very good hardpoints would get a lower treshhold too, where mechs with a very bad layout could benefit (like the awesome, cataphract, orion) from a higher treshhold.