13 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

2x cUAC/10 + 2x cUAC/5 == 540+ m range and 34 tons

3x isUAC/10 == 450 m range and 39 tons.

Why should there be ghost heat on it?

[Jettrik Ryflix]

And where are you going to equip 3 UAC10s, besides a cheeze build Muromets, or an Annihilator (which many think will be DOA)?

[Y E O N N E]

Jettrik Ryflix, on 30 June 2017 - 10:57 PM, said:

And where are you going to equip 3 UAC10s, besides a cheeze build Muromets, or an Annihilator (which many think will be DOA)?

Nightstar 9P can do it. Can do four, even, but that would be ultra gimmicky.

[kapusta11]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 June 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

2x cUAC/10 + 2x cUAC/5 == 540+ m range and 34 tons

3x isUAC/10 == 450 m range and 39 tons.

Why should there be ghost heat on it?

Because of Mauler 2P with 110 damage burst alpha?

[Y E O N N E]

kapusta11, on 30 June 2017 - 11:18 PM, said:

Because of Mauler 2P with 110 damage burst alpha?

With 3x UAC/10? Not on the MAL-2P...

Note, I wasn't talking about the 20, I was specifically talking about the 10.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

kapusta11, on 30 June 2017 - 11:18 PM, said:

Because of Mauler 2P with 110 damage burst alpha?

The DWF can already do 100+ alpha without double tapping.

[Y E O N N E]

Plus, the MAL-2P with 6x MedLas and 2x UAC/20 is running close to the line after that alpha and double tap. And it's 300 m. It's not like the old 4x cUAC/10 KDK-3 which ripped out 80 damage at 540+ m...and then kept on going because it ran cold.

[TattleTale]

It won't last guys have fun while it's still there. All other AC20s ghost heat at 2, the IS UACs will as well. 80 damage for 25% heat will not be allowed into the game.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

TattleTale, on 01 July 2017 - 12:14 AM, said:

It won't last guys have fun while it's still there. All other AC20s ghost heat at 2, the IS UACs will as well. 80 damage for 25% heat will not be allowed into the game.

No ghost heat on LB20X- Clan or IS.

Might not last but the reality is that IS ballistics need some advantage over Clan to offset the vastly worse fitting requirements. Double UAC20 really only works on a handful of chassis, and then the only one with UAC jam chance to exploit it is the MAL-2P.

So if 80 dmg double tap is OP, how do you propose to balance UAC20 against both regular AC20 and Clan UAC20? Reducing number of shells from 3 to 2 seems obvious but presents more of an overall buff, given how many mechs with UAC jam stand to gain from UAC20. Furthermore, a buff based around a corresponding ghost heat change risks making AC20 obsolete (which isn't necessarily intended).

Remove AC20 ghost heat and reduce the number of shells in UAC20 burst? That's a rebalance I could stand behind. Flat nerfs to normalize IS and Clan UAC characteristics without acknowledging the fitting tax on IS weapons is a real mistake.

Have to say that UAC20 is also pretty much the first time I've played an IS mech where heavy caliber ballistics felt right- not boating AC5s or whatever because devs hate double digit numbers, but really bringing Stackpole- tier firepower ripping mechs apart, unencumbered by PGI anti fun mechanics. Whether it stays or not I guess I just wish big IS ballistics were good for a couple patches.

[AngrySpartan]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 01 July 2017 - 01:28 AM, said:

No ghost heat on LB20X- Clan or IS.

Might not last but the reality is that IS ballistics need some advantage over Clan to offset the vastly worse fitting requirements. Double UAC20 really only works on a handful of chassis, and then the only one with UAC jam chance to exploit it is the MAL-2P.

So if 80 dmg double tap is OP, how do you propose to balance UAC20 against both regular AC20 and Clan UAC20? Reducing number of shells from 3 to 2 seems obvious but presents more of an overall buff, given how many mechs with UAC jam stand to gain from UAC20. Furthermore, a buff based around a corresponding ghost heat change risks making AC20 obsolete (which isn't necessarily intended).

Remove AC20 ghost heat and reduce the number of shells in UAC20 burst? That's a rebalance I could stand behind. Flat nerfs to normalize IS and Clan UAC characteristics without acknowledging the fitting tax on IS weapons is a real mistake.

Have to say that UAC20 is also pretty much the first time I've played an IS mech where heavy caliber ballistics felt right- not boating AC5s or whatever because devs hate double digit numbers, but really bringing Stackpole- tier firepower ripping mechs apart, unencumbered by PGI anti fun mechanics. Whether it stays or not I guess I just wish big IS ballistics were good for a couple patches.

1. Do not balance it against cUAC20. Clan UAC 20 is the most offended ballistic cannon in clan arsenal. Single one - useless, because not enough Effective damage for it's weight and you can lose your gun for 12s (I believe jam duration was 8 last time i used it). With ~300m effective range (low velocity cuts that last 100m anyway) that's practically a suicide. 4 shells in a salvo and low velocity ensures damage goes all over the place.
No one use double cUAC20s except for gimmicky builds. 2UAC 10s works waaay better and at bigger range with only 20% lower DPS.
2. Regular AC20 can do only 40 damage, and even than they receive substantial Ghost heat.
3. LBXs spread damage a lot, their effective range is even lower than regular 20s (150-200 is ok for hitting single component).
4. IS Uac 10s and 20s has 1 shell less in a salvo than their caln counterparts. And it feels (don't have numbers obviously) that even than IS UAC20 shoots 3 shells faster than cUAC10. IS UAC10 feels and plays like pinpoint damage weapon - I swapped AC10 for UAC10 on MAD3R and accuracy difference is negligible. UAC 20 is almost pinpoint at it's optimal range.
5. For huge pinpoint alpha IS have Heavy Gauss (which should be buffed and squized by 1 slot anyway).
6. Finally - imagine yourself on the receiving end of 80 almost pinpoint damage. That numbers are bad for the gameplay, no matter if it's clan or IS side. There should be no 1-shot 1-kill situations, unless it's a lucky headshot or opened back CT.

You can skip all the first 5 point, and read the last only. That's the only thing matter and that's why IS UAC 20 should receive ghost heat. It will keep it's 40 DMG double tap potential anyway.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 01 July 2017 - 02:11 AM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

AngrySpartan, on 01 July 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

1. Do not balance it against cUAC20. Clan UAC 20 is the most offended ballistic cannon in clan arsenal. Single one - useless, because not enough Effective damage for it's weight and you can lose your gun for 12s (I believe jam duration was 8 last time i used it). With ~300m effective range (low velocity cuts that last 100m anyway) that's practically a suicide. 4 shells in a salvo and low velocity ensures damage goes all over the place.
No one use double cUAC20s except for gimmicky builds. 2UAC 10s works waaay better and at bigger range with only 20% lower DPS.
2. Regular AC20 can do only 40 damage, and even than they receive substantial Ghost heat.
3. LBXs spread damage a lot, their effective range is even lower than regular 20s (150-200 is ok for hitting single component).
4. IS Uac 10s and 20s has 1 shell less in a salvo than their caln counterparts. And it feels (don't have numbers obviously) that even than IS UAC20 shoots 3 shells faster than cUAC10. IS UAC10 feels and plays like pinpoint damage weapon - I swapped AC10 for UAC10 on MAD3R and accuracy difference is negligible. UAC 20 is almost pinpoint at it's optimal range.
5. For huge pinpoint alpha IS have Heavy Gauss (which should be buffed and squized by 1 slot anyway).
6. Finally - imagine yourself on the receiving end of 80 almost pinpoint damage. That numbers are bad for the gameplay, no matter if it's clan or IS side. There should be no 1-shot 1-kill situations, unless it's a lucky headshot or opened back CT.

You can skip all the first 5 point, and read the last only. That's the only thing matter and that's why IS UAC 20 should receive ghost heat. It will keep it's 40 DMG double tap potential anyway.

No. IS UAC20 is not "almost pinpoint damage".

Most of the problems you have with Clan UAC20 are equally applicable to IS UAC20. They have the same shell velocity (650 ms) and IS UAC20 has shorter optimal range... and twin UAC20 only really applies to mechs that are slower than every other Clan mech but the DWF anyways, so it would seem that every criticism you make about the Clan UAC20 of having poor damage for its tonnage and range would be even more applicable to the IS version.

In my testing:

Clan UAC20 (12t, 8s)

20/4 dmg

360 optimal
650 m/s velocity

0.83s burst duration
7.93s jam duration

IS UAC20 (15t, 11s)

20/3 dmg

270 optimal
650 m/s velocity

0.63s burst duration
7.5s jam duration

Clan UAC10 (10t, 4s)

10/3 dmg

540 optimal
950 m/s velocity

0.63 burst duration
7.93 jam duration

This is based upon keyframing in Premier- numbers should be accurate +/- 0.2ms.

A shorter burst duration simply is not worth an extra 3t and 3 slots, in a weapon that can't be used with a lower arm actuator. It's not "almost pinpoint damage"- you aren't going to be gibbing light mechs running by or mediums poking from cover 300m away with a 650m/s velocity over a 0.63s double tap.

Consider that most IS mechs that could use the UAC20 can only mount one of them! Woooooow IS UAC20 is soooooooooo good 15t man what a steal.

[J0anna]

Promessa, on 30 June 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

So I'm having fun with it but... There should probably be ghost heat on 2 Uac 20's or 3 uac 10's.

Ah, no... IS UAC's give up range, weight, and slots - Ghost heat is a horrible mechanic and should never have been implemented. Do you actually find people standing still long enough that you can concentrate a double tap in one area? Avoiding taking 40 points of damage to one area is as easy as moving your hand.