11 replies to this topic

[Kaptain]

I have been testing stealth armor on a number of mechs and I'm just left wondering, what is the point?

Trade-Offs
-12 Slots permanently fixed across your limbs and side torsos. This means you can not store ammo in your legs and you are limited as to what ballistic you carry in a side torso, esp if you want to bring a LFE.
-Obviously, Stealth armor is an armor type so one can't also equip FF or LFF to take advantage of the weight savings.
-The extra slots limit assaults/heavies use of Endo Steel.
-When the system is on you can't dump heat. Even standing still on hot maps Generates heat.
-Using energy weapons with Stealth armor toggled on means you're not only giving away your position but also building heat you can't dissipate.
-Using Stealth armor to run away is also problematic. Generally when you are running away you have heat stores that you can dissipate but this is not the case with SA turned on for an escape.
-Back stabbing is problematic as I believe the use of its associated ECM in disrupt mode alerts enemies to you presence. (I have only fought one SA LCT and I certainly knew when he was coming)
-With Stealth Armor turned on you are left in the dark. Team position, team health, enemy position, enemy health, enemy loadouts and even "If Friend or Foe" information is unknown. This greatly increases your need for situation awareness and team communication as to prevent friendly fire. Which would be great if the reward matched... That's a big IF though.
-One can't simply decloak/recloak as there is a 10 second cooldown on stealth armor.


Mechs I tried to make SA work on.
-Raven. 295XL, ES, 2XPPC, Tag and some rockets. Not sure if tag works or not. It gives up your position though. Swapping the rockets for narc might be viable. Overall I just found myself not using SA at all on this build.
-Griffen. 285LFE, ES, 2XMPLs, 4XSR4s. This felt pretty meh. Using SA to sneak up on a flank or backstab is ok but the ECM alerts your enemies to your presence. One you go weapons hot your probably never going to toggle SA on again due to heat.
-Phract. 300std, ES, AC20, 4MPLs. Again pretty mech. While it was fun to flank an enemy team and backstab a MDR2c it was just too slow. Maybe in a more hectic 12v12 this would work better.
-Atlas. Can't remember exact loadout. 340lfe?, Guass, SRMS, MPLs. (Something like that) Here there are a ton of limitations. One cant run ECM+SA+SRM6S+Art, nore can one run AC20+SA+LFE. and all the ammo has to be stored in the body/arms(probably without case due to slots)
-Cicada. Here is where I found something that kinda works. 255XL, ES, 3ML, LGR+2tons and SA+ECM(obviously). Unfortunately LFE+GA+ECM+SA in the left torso is 13 slots so unless one want to run a very slow std engine you are stuck with the lightGR.
-In the future I could see the Enforcer hero being a very niche snipper. 255xl, ES, 2JJ, 2xERML and a guass with 2(?) tons.

Known Bugs
-The use of SA causes a bug in ES where it also becomes non dynamic and "fixed" in place
-There is a bug when switching armor types with ES equipped where the mech displays "open" slots that are actually ES slots.
-IFF info remains on screen once SA is toggles on until such time as you turn away.
-Sometimes IFF info flashes for just a sec (intentional?)
Known Counters
I need to run a private match to be 100% sure but from what I can tell PPCs are countering SA+ECM. This makes SA near worthless esp considering its trade offs from above. From the devs description this is probably a bug?

Unknown Counters:
Tag. Have not tested yet.
ECM in counter have not tested yet.
Narc. Have not tested yet.

In Conclusion, What is the point?
-You can't use energy weapons to snipe and only 2? mechs are fast enough to be LGR/GR snipers and mount back up weapons.
-Heavies aren't really fast enough to position themselves well and even then ECM disruption and Seismic Sensor give you away.
-Assaults are even slower and SA puts constraining limitation on Ballistic choice, LFE usage and slot limitations.
-Running from a fight with SS on just means you are going to be too hot to fight next mech you encounter.

Edited by Kaptain, 01 July 2017 - 07:41 PM.

[Kaptain]

Update: I suppose "the point" is very situational flanking and escapes at ranges ECM would not normally protect you from being noticed. Playing the raven with 3xLPPC is very exciting. Brought some rockets also to exploit holes in back stabbed mechs.

As for counters... I am definitely getting hit with tracking missiles while Stealth Armor is toggled on just not sure how yet.

Edited by Kaptain, 01 July 2017 - 07:51 PM.

[KekistanWillRiseAgain]

Kaptain, on 01 July 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

Update: I suppose "the point" is very situational flanking and escapes at ranges ECM would not normally protect you from being noticed. Playing the raven with 3xLPPC is very exciting. Brought some rockets also to exploit holes in back stabbed mechs.

As for counters... I am definitely getting hit with tracking missiles while Stealth Armor is toggled on just not sure how yet.

TAG would be my guess and hope... TAG providing itself information instead of anything from your mech

[Wibbledtodeath]

Kaptain, on 01 July 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

Update: I suppose "the point" is very situational flanking and escapes at ranges ECM would not normally protect you from being noticed. Playing the raven with 3xLPPC is very exciting. Brought some rockets also to exploit holes in back stabbed mechs.

As for counters... I am definitely getting hit with tracking missiles while Stealth Armor is toggled on just not sure how yet.

I have been in a number of games with Kaptain and he uses stealth to brutal effect in that raven. As for counters- their should be none- I agree with the OP on that.
But showing up on allied radar would prevent team kills and so probably should happen (in 4v4 warning about team kills is ok- but in a 12 man you know at least someone won't be listening)

[kapusta11]

I think Stealth Armor is trash.

Why people use it? To mitigate damage and conceal their position.

The latter doesn't work well against good players and poptarting is better at mitigating incoming damage. And you can still have endo steel, carry bulky weapons and dissipate heat.

[Kaptain]

Wibbledtodeath, on 01 July 2017 - 11:29 PM, said:

I have been in a number of games with Kaptain and he uses stealth to brutal effect in that raven.

Thank you. I've had some of the most enjoyable MWO games since closed beta in PTS today.

[DeeHawk]

I'm not entirely sure everything works as intended yet:

Quote

When active, Stealth Armor will make your 'Mech invisible to Enemy Sensors and Targeting systems, remaining visible only to the naked eye. When Stealth Armor is active your ECM will automatically switch to Disrupt, and will function in that state as normal.

In their own words they specifically note that you are invisible to the enemy. Being invisible to your allies is a horrible idea. This sword that is the Stealth Armor has enough edges already.
------------------------EDIT---------------------------
I have come to think more about it, and I believe one of the intended uses of stealth armor, is roaming the enemy team freely. This only works if you're indistinguishable, and that's probably why you are hidden to everyone. I actually think that the patch notes has a wrong description.
This brings another important information point. You should always be aware of how many ECM lights you have on your team. Not only to not shoot them, but more important, so you can distinguish between the enemy stealthers.
----------------------EDIT END----------------------

Quote

When Stealth Armor is deactivated any retained Heat is quickly dissipated,

They say quickly? Like, quicker than normal? I have not noted any difference in the dissipation of heat, when you turn it off.
----------------------------------------

I totally agree that the usage is very limited. The only time it will have any effect, is when you're within line of sight of an enemy mech, and closer than 200m. Also this effect only applies to you, and not the allies you cover in your bubble, so it has no use for group flanking maneuvers.

At this time I can only see one place where it shines: When in a very fast mech, you can get past a few front line enemies on your way to the back line, without their entire team noticing your presence and location. Also, it can surely help you escape from the back line, since I often tend to run my Locust all the way back to my team, twisting and turning without firing, when I catch a tail. On hot maps this could prove somewhat difficult to pull off, since you're probably already pretty hot when you activate it. This situation could be handled by never allowing your heat over 80% (If you know your alpha is 20% you never fire above 60% heat), so you always have some potential heat for stealth in order to escape.

Edited by DeeHawk, 03 July 2017 - 11:02 PM.

[Kaptain]

DeeHawk, I agree with you on pretty much everything. SA does not look to be behaving the way its description would suggest.

As for making it more viable and dealing with the heat issue. Why not just remove its heat generation. That way you can't cool down with it on (one of many drawbacks) but at least you could use it to escape from a bad situation. Thoughts?

[DeeHawk]

Kaptain, on 03 July 2017 - 01:18 AM, said:

DeeHawk, I agree with you on pretty much everything. SA does not look to be behaving the way its description would suggest.

As for making it more viable and dealing with the heat issue. Why not just remove its heat generation. That way you can't cool down with it on (one of many drawbacks) but at least you could use it to escape from a bad situation. Thoughts?

Thanks! I haven't been able to try it out in a match yet, only in training grounds. Very informative to have a thorough tester confirm my speculations.

To make it more viable, they should definately put the blue triangle back on the HUD of your allies, even when SA is activated. (Probably as intended)

As a regular scout player, I understand how information of individual mechs can be vital to the success of the team. The ability to run off with SA activated seems like a really powerful tool for a scout or backstabber, and as so, I think it's fair that you'll have to manage your heat to accomplish that on hot maps.

However I will have to test this particular 'feature' on full release and my opinion might very well be subject to change. If people thought the Skilltree changed the meta, then tell them we're headed for Metapocalypse with the Civil War update.

[Widowmaker1981]

The only possible benefit of stealth armour is if it hides your thermal signature so heat vision cant see you. The sensor blocking is pointless because ECM does that already at the ranges that matter, without the massive number of drawbacks.

And since the reason mechs show up as black blobs on hot maps at range is because there is a range limit on heat vision, i.e. mechs are set to show up as black beyond ~400m, since that is the background colour for heat vision. The same mech assets are used on every map, and the hot maps show the background as light grey - in other words its a bug, which in order to fix they would have to double the mech assets in the game and use a different one on hot maps. As such, id be extremely surprised if stealth armour stops you showing up as a black blob in heat vision at long range on hot maps, which is really its only use, when what ECM does by itself is considered.

[Cy Mitchell]

This thread made me curious. Does Stealth Armor work the same if you have the minimum points in ECM? I do not play IS (until my Uziel arrives) but I built a PHX 1B just to experiment with Stealth. I looked for a Mech with ballistics to avoid heat. I tried the Light Gauss, 2xAC5 and 2xUAC2 as main weapons. Due to weight and slot constraints I ended up with the Light Gauss/2ERML with ECM, SA and 2xJJ. This is with a 295XL. It has speed, jumping ability and stealth but the firepower sucks at 18. Heat efficiency is 1.84. Might be OK as a flanker/harasser.

Then I switched the PHX-1B to a 2xSNPPC/2XMG build. Same engine. Same speed. Same jumping ability. Cooling efficiency 1.46 but firing those twin SNPPC is going to generate 20 heat so with SA that will be an issue. You have to sneak in a little closer but it might be a nice set-up to deal with back line snipers and LRM boats. Maybe a decent flanker too. The MGs are there for finishers if you can open up the back armor or in late game when everything is open armor.

I am going to take it to Terra Therma testing grounds and try it out with no skills except one ECM node first and then add some skills to it and see if I can make it viable (or even usable).

EDIT: Dropped to 1 Ton of MG ammo and added a erML to bump the damage a little higher. Now at 34.5 w/MG, 25 w/o MG factored in The SNPPC and the erML have good range and cooldown synergy but firing them together drops the heat efficiency to 1.30. I will focus on Cool Run, Heat Containment, Heat Generation and Range along with Speed Tweak. If I only need 1 ECM node then I will go Aux for Enhanced Coolshots and Strikes.

EDIT 2: SA does work with just 1 ECM node selected. I am not sure if there is a benefit to getting the other ECM node except when SA is disabled. The Cool Run has a huge impact on running with SA on. However, even with all the Heat Generation nodes, Cool Run nodes and Heat Containment nodes, I could still only fire the pair of SNPPCs a couple times with SA on after moving into optimum range of the Catapult on Terra Therma. There is no way you are going to fight a sustained fight with SA on even if you drop a Cool Shot. So the best use is sneaking into position, shutting off, wait for part of the cooldown time to expire and your heat to dissipate then strike. Activate SA again to run away.

EDIT 3: I built a Cyclops 1-P. Gauss/PPC/LPPC. I am not much of an Assault pilot but it moves at 72KPH which is nice. Alpha is only 30 but it is FLPPD. Mounts are not high so you have to really expose. I am not convinced that SA would be enough of a plus to bother with as it severely limits slots.

EDIT 4: I tried it on a Griffin 2N MRM jump sniper. The slots used for SA limit the ammo, speed and just do not give much benefit at all. However, I do rather like the MRMs as a mid-range jump sniping weapon. I think those may find there way onto my Uziel.

Stealth Armor is certainly not going to be the overpowered monster that a couple of people predicted. It is very niche and really needs a pure ballistic build with good punch to be very interesting. MRMs on the Griffin work too but I was less than impressed. I think the most successful build I made was the Phoenix Hawk but even it would probably be better without SA.

Edited by Rampage, 03 July 2017 - 11:26 AM.

[DeeHawk]

I have come to think more about it, and I believe one of the intended uses of stealth armor, is roaming the enemy team freely. This only works if you're indistinguishable, and that's probably why you are hidden to everyone. I actually think that the patch notes has a wrong description.
This brings another important information point. You should always be aware of how many ECM lights you have on your team. Not only to not shoot them, but more important, so you can distinguish between the enemy stealthers.

I've updated my previous reply with this speculation.

Edited by DeeHawk, 03 July 2017 - 11:02 PM.