17 replies to this topic

[Ch_R0me]

OK, so I had my first tests with the brand new toys, including the IS PPC's.

And I've found some interesting change in HPPC...

Minimum range now represented by an exponential damage drop off similar to Clan LRMs.

So PGI, why you don't implement that "reversed falloff" to the LPPC and (most importantly) standard PPC? :/

[Kjudoon]

Difference between LPPCs and PPCs:

based on 10 damage

Tonnage
LPPCs = 6
PPCs = 7

Hardpoints
LPPCs 2
PPCs = 1

Slots
LPPCs 4
PPCs 3

Same heat, cooldown and range and disadvantages.
Advantage: solidly to PPC

The good news is compared to a Heavy PPC,

3 LPPCs versus 1 HPPC

Tonnage
LCCPs = 9
HPPCs = 10

Adv LPPCs

Slots
HPPC = 4
LPPC = 6 (for 3)

Adv HPPCs

Dmg
HPPC = 13
LPPCs = 15

Adv LPPCs

Heat
HPPC = 14.5
LPPCs = 15

Adv HPPCs
Range, Cooldown, Range and Min Range all the same. It does have the ramping up damage now like CLRMs and that is good, but not enough.

Overall Advantage = 3xLPPCs versus 1xHPPC in a freakishly thin margin depending on if you can run hotter have the slots and have more hardpoints to spend.

I'm not gonna compare the snubbies because they are a different beast, and the best new addition so far, providing clear contrast to the class of weapon.

IMHO,

HPPCs need to be both heavier, slower cooldown, better damage and better range (a mid point between current and ERPPCs

LPPCs need to have a full point less heat, a full second faster cooldown, and shorter range similar to a LL You also need to base overheat on the damage per salvo... like 30 and the rest of the PPCs? So you could fire 6 of them without ghostheat. They're medium lasers with range and pinpoint after all. If heat was comparable, they'd actually be the better choice between the two.

So, IMHO there's more than minimum range which could use changing, but the regular PPC is fine where it is for the reasons that it always had.

[The Basilisk]

Kjudoon, on 02 July 2017 - 01:26 AM, said:

[stuff]

Pls check your values for slots, tonnage and dmg regarding PPCs, Heavy PPCs and light PPCs

PPC: 10dmg 10heat 3slots 7tonns 2.5 dps/hps
LPPC: 5dmg 5heat 2slots 3tonns 1.25 dps/hps
HPPC: 12dmg 3splash 15heat 4slots 10tonns 3 dps (3.75dps) 3.75hps

And all PPCs got 4 sec cool down

Or are you talking about dps, hps, dmg to weight ratio, dmg to heat ratio, or ... yea what do you want to tell us ?

Edited by The Basilisk, 02 July 2017 - 01:42 AM.

[Kjudoon]

The Basilisk, on 02 July 2017 - 01:35 AM, said:

Proving he didn't read "stuff" closely enough.

Thank you for reminding me what the forums really populated with here.

Edited by Kjudoon, 02 July 2017 - 01:58 AM.

[Nesutizale]

I agree that instead of a no-damage-zone weapons should have a reverse falloff at min range.
Since the falloff represents the "harder to hit" rules from the TT it would be logical to have the same mechanic for min range as its also a "harder to hit" in TT.

[The Basilisk]

Kjudoon, on 02 July 2017 - 01:57 AM, said:

Thank you for reminding me what the forums really populated with here.

Speaking and arguing inside your own mind is not constructive.
Insulting others too is not constructive.
I did not understand what you wrote due to the fact that you confusing expressions, got multiple spelling failures and other stuff preventing me from understanding what you actually want to express with your text.

[The Basilisk]

Nesutizale, on 02 July 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

I agree that instead of a no-damage-zone weapons should have a reverse falloff at min range.
Since the falloff represents the "harder to hit" rules from the TT it would be logical to have the same mechanic for min range as its also a "harder to hit" in TT.

The mechanic for PPCs in TT that are fired under their min range IS NOT HARDER TO HIT but rather risk to dmg yourself and loose the weapon.
You may disable the "fieldinhibitor" of a standart PPC that PREVENTS you from firing under 90m at the risk of gettin hit by your own particle coud jammed between your weapon and the target.

The harder to hit at min range rule applies to AC2, AC5 and Gauss due to the length (ever tryed to track a shortranged fastmoving target with a longbarreled heavy gun?) and weight of their barrels.

LRMs are quite similar to PPCs. Disable short range safety and your launcher might explode when hit missiles explode in it or in short distance.

Regarding the no dmg gap....well its a case of wanting to eat the cake without wanting to get fat.
You are presented with ups and downs of some items and do not want to have the downs ...

I do think that, inside the box of Inner Sphere weapons, the HPC makes sense.
You have the PPC as base with 2.5 dps and hps and you add 3 tons to a single weapon system and 1 slot and get 1.25 dps and hps. Sounds legit.

Compared to the Clan techlevel the HPPC and the LPPC are bad jokes in any of their stats.

Edited by The Basilisk, 02 July 2017 - 02:29 AM.

[Ch_R0me]

The Basilisk, on 02 July 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

The mechanic for PPCs in TT that are fired under their min range IS NOT HARDER TO HIT but rather risk to dmg yourself and loose the weapon.
You may disable the "fieldinhibitor" of a standart PPC that PREVENTS you from firing under 90m at the risk of gettin hit by your own particle coud jammed between your weapon and the target.

AFAIK in TT there is still "Harder To Hit (HtH)" mechanism applied to PPC's when Inhibitor is on.
But yeah - PPC's (and LPPC's too) should have (besides of reverse falloff as equivalent for HtH) also the switch to disable HtH for risking to kapow your guns (fusion of Gauss and MASC mechanics)

[Y E O N N E]

Eh, in my mind PGI could use minimum range falloff to provide a reason to take a pair of standard PPC over LPPC, the latter of which would retain a hard cut-off. It's not ideal, but if PGI needs a reason to differentiate LPPC and HPPC so we can strike with 4 LPPC sans penalty, that's as good an option as any.

[Snowbluff]

I feel like PPCs just shouldn't fire, like how Streaks won't fire if you don't get a lock on, within their minimum range.

cLRM falloff is nasty anway. Have you seen how bad it is?

Edited by Snowbluff, 02 July 2017 - 07:47 AM.

[NiuqOteen]

Nesutizale, on 02 July 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

I agree that instead of a no-damage-zone weapons should have a reverse falloff at min range.
Since the falloff represents the "harder to hit" rules from the TT it would be logical to have the same mechanic for min range as its also a "harder to hit" in TT.

Now that they showed it could be done, i think it should be done. With the exception of the light PPC perhaps?

[Tarl Cabot]

They could have the drop off but have a cutoff at 30m. Or any other variables. There could even be splash damage against the shooter.

[Koniving]

Snowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

I feel like PPCs just shouldn't fire, like how Streaks won't fire if you don't get a lock on, within their minimum range.

It'd beat dealing zero damage and all that wasted heat.

But.. Why? In Battletech, it is a Minimum Range (for undue difficulty to accuracy), in other words a minimum accurate range penalty which basically means it's hard to hit something at 90 meters or less. And the difficulty is just +1 to hit (which is the same as the penalty for trying to hit an enemy that is walking.) Granted this really compounds itself if you're running and they are running, and it is meant to account for an enemy mech that might be really close and...
([Old Lore] that added difficulty of tracking the mech as he zips in front of you)
([90s+ Lore] the added difficulty of dealing with a firing delay that prevents your weapon from exploding in your face when you pull the trigger; a delay you can switch off...which has maybe a 1 in 3 chance of exploding in your face every time you pull the trigger without it.)

There's no reason for it to do zero damage. That's something PGI made up.

Edited by Koniving, 02 July 2017 - 02:55 PM.

[FupDup]

I think it would be cool if PPCs gained that splash/arcing effect if fired within 90 meters. The total damage would be the same, but spread out (e.g. regular PPC would something like 6-7 direct and 3-4 splash up close).

[Nesutizale]

The Basilisk, on 02 July 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

The mechanic for PPCs in TT that are fired under their min range IS NOT HARDER TO HIT but rather risk to dmg yourself and loose the weapon.
You may disable the "fieldinhibitor" of a standart PPC that PREVENTS you from firing under 90m at the risk of gettin hit by your own particle coud jammed between your weapon and the target.

We are both kinda right
Total Warfare Rules, page 108 clearly states that firing inside the minimal range gives you a to-hit modifier.
Tactical Handbook, page 223 explains the rules about the inhibitor as you mentioned them.

Who is right? Well I think that depends on what Rules does PGI/MWO follow?
Total Warfares rule is a T2 rule while the Tactical Handbook is a T3 rule.
Since I haven't seen any other T3 rules in MWO I assumed that they would follow T2 rules, those only the to-hit modifier would apply in this case.
Adding some T3 rules like the PPC inhibitor would be interesting, though.

PS: The Tactical Manual isn't an official rulebook IIRC. Had lots of cool stuff in it but a lot got new rules with the Maximum Tech manual.

Quote

The harder to hit at min range rule applies to AC2, AC5 and Gauss due to the length (ever tryed to track a shortranged fastmoving target with a longbarreled heavy gun?) and weight of their barrels.

Don't come me with physics, we are doing spacemagic here
Also is that realy an explanation in the books? Can't remember haveing read that anywhere.

Quote

LRMs are quite similar to PPCs. Disable short range safety and your launcher might explode when hit missiles explode in it or in short distance.

Ok I haven't even found a T3 for that...where does that come from?
PS: Are you refering to hot loading your LRMs? Then yes they can blow up in your face.

Quote

Regarding the no dmg gap....well its a case of wanting to eat the cake without wanting to get fat.
You are presented with ups and downs of some items and do not want to have the downs ...

Again if we follow T2 rules, the downside is that its very, very likely that you will miss, doing no damage at all while heating yourself up.

Since the to-hit modifier for long ranges is represented by damage falloff I thought of it beeing a logical conclusion to apply it here too.

Also the falloff would be pretty strong. A normal PPCs would falloff to around the damage of a lightlaser / MG.
Firing a lightlaser for 10 heat...be my guest. Doubt that there would be a weapon less effective in the game.

Edited by Nesutizale, 02 July 2017 - 04:00 PM.

[zeves]

pgi follow their own rules always so make something up.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 02 July 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

I think it would be cool if PPCs gained that splash/arcing effect if fired within 90 meters. The total damage would be the same, but spread out (e.g. regular PPC would something like 6-7 direct and 3-4 splash up close).

I could accept that.

[Snowbluff]

Koniving, on 02 July 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

It'd beat dealing zero damage and all that wasted heat.

But.. Why? In Battletech, it is a Minimum Range (for undue difficulty to accuracy), in other words a minimum accurate range penalty which basically means it's hard to hit something at 90 meters or less. And the difficulty is just +1 to hit (which is the same as the penalty for trying to hit an enemy that is walking.) Granted this really compounds itself if you're running and they are running, and it is meant to account for an enemy mech that might be really close and...
([Old Lore] that added difficulty of tracking the mech as he zips in front of you)
([90s+ Lore] the added difficulty of dealing with a firing delay that prevents your weapon from exploding in your face when you pull the trigger; a delay you can switch off...which has maybe a 1 in 3 chance of exploding in your face every time you pull the trigger without it.)

There's no reason for it to do zero damage. That's something PGI made up.

Well, the PPCs could backfire, so it's a safety feature, wasn't it? I like this system better. It makes the PPC more interesting as a weapon.

I should make a list of things that I want in the game (fixed LBX spread, PPC minimum range safety, LRM indirect/direct FCS, ATM FCS group), and having an override, or having heat override allow CQC PPC use at the cost of self damage would be pretty neat.

Edited by Snowbluff, 03 July 2017 - 10:58 AM.