66 replies to this topic

[DGTLDaemon]

So, PPFLD builds based on the Gauss+ERPPC combo are appparently causing enough concern to PGI so that they have repeatedly nerfed a number of chassis capable of supporting such builds. But instead of targeting mechs that can also run a number of other, non-OP builds, I propose targeting the offending loadout. The game already has a hard-coded limit of 2 Gauss rifles that can be fired at a time, and it was implemented for that very reason: to prevent obsene PPFLD alphas at long range. Gauss+ERPPC builds circumvent this limit by combining two different PPFLD weapon systems. So, why not apply the limit to both weapons? Make it simple: if you fire any number of Gauss rifles, you have to wait 0.5 seconds before you fire any number of ERPPCs, and vice versa. This way, builds like 2xGauss+2xERPPC will remain viable, but they will have to stagger their shots. And PGI can then base their balancing decisions on the chassis' overall performance rather than a single offending loadout which allows the mech to rise above the power curve. Any thoughts, gentlemen?

[Ced Riggs]

Not a fan of these artificial limits, to be honest. And I don't even run Goode/Pepsi on all but one mech.

[Nesutizale]

How about adding heat to the Gauss?
While I am pretty in favor for lore I think the low heat of the Gauss was broken in TT and its even more in MWO.

[Nik Reaper]

Meh, I really like the cockpit shake the heavy gauss has , it takes me back to MW3 and all the nice AC spam ....

Anyhow they could make it so all large weapons have some amount of cockpit shake ( per weapon value ) when firing so you have to chain fire and re-target ( though on some weapon combinations the shake value might only make it so that they don't hit the same component ) or only fire alpha in close range to be sure to hit.

[Bud Crue]

Huh. And here I thought they were trying to make sure that Gauss/PPC was they only way to play certain mechs.

I mean nerfing the mobility of the Mad-IIc and Night Gyr encourages long range builds over brawling...ya need to twist and reposition to effectively brawl, not so much of you are going to peek and poke. Same with the Kodiak 3, a mech that big and now so slow can't afford to be caught out; so how to play it? Hide and poke with Gauss PPC. Nerfs to UACs last December only further encourages such play.

Now they are approaching it from the other side too: Nerfing the Grasshopper 5P ensures that the IS has one less decent counter to Clan long range PPFLD, thus encouraging Clan players to take such builds even more. The coming soon nerf to Battlemasters will further encourage Clan players to run long range PPFLD as yet another IS counter is made less competitive.

[Koniving]

PGI had something that covered this. It was called Ghost Heat 2.0 aka Energy Draw.

Seems no one liked it. Even though now it would allow things like 3 to 4 Light Gauss or twin Light Gauss + Gauss, allow us to unnerf the Heavy Gauss by simply not allowing twin Heavy Gauss to be charged at the same time, a limit to how many Gauss and PPCs can be fired at once so that the two PPC limit can be lifted, but when you throw Gauss into the mix it goes back to a two PPC limit due to energy draw, etc.

It would also allow four Light PPC without the hardcoded ghost heat problems that would allow 2 PPC + 4 Light PPC alpha strikes to go unpunished when we make the change, also so that you could combine 1 PPC/ERPPC/SnubPPC + 2 Light PPC with it counting the same as 2 PPCs.
Huh. Shame.

[Morderian]

not such a bad idea, could get rid of 35-50 pinpoint strikes especially on poptarts, woud allow us to rebalance other things like Jumpjets in the game too when that pinpoint fire is gone only disadvantage is see is that it will buff Vomit build a lot

[Nesutizale]

The energie draw system was, in combination with ghostheat to confusing.
I liked the general idea but it was hard to see through it and understand whats happening.

[DGTLDaemon]

Bud Crue, on 02 July 2017 - 05:25 AM, said:

Huh. And here I thought they were trying to make sure that Gauss/PPC was they only way to play certain mechs.

And that's exactly what worries me. PGI take mechs that can support the Goose-Pepsi meta, nerf them by reducing their mobility (because it's PGI's favorite way of nerfing mechs these days), and thus further reinforce their role as Gauss/PPC carriers, because such builds don't need much mobility, especially if they can poptart. Take the Night Gyr, for example. I used to see both poptart builds and dakka builds in about equal measure. Nowadays, virtually every Night Gyr I see in the field is a Goose-Pepsi poptart. It's unhealthy in terms of build variety.

Koniving, on 02 July 2017 - 05:31 AM, said:

PGI had something that covered this. It was called Ghost Heat 2.0 aka Energy Draw.

Seems no one liked it.

The problem with Energy Draw was that it gave a huge boost to PPFLD. 30 points of pinpoint damage was still decent, while 30 points of damage spread over the burn duration was crap.

[Koniving]

DGTLDaemon, on 02 July 2017 - 05:46 AM, said:

The problem with Energy Draw was that it gave a huge boost to PPFLD. 30 points of pinpoint damage was still decent, while 30 points of damage spread over the burn duration was crap.

It needed some improvements and perhaps some competent design/redesign. But it was a start.

If the game wasn't so designed around PPFLD, things would be a lot easier. The only FLD weapons that should exist are Gauss, Missiles and PPCs. Mech Rifles, too, but I digress. (Then high energy drain wouldn't be needed for ACs).

[KodiakGW]

Nerf, nerf, nerf. How about buff, buff, buff?

Make UAC5s jam less. Lower the tonnage on AC2s and 5s and make them fire faster. Tighten up the LBX spread (or make the Skill Tree node better than just 2.5%). Tons of possibilities. The only other alternative is to have a real power draw system, to which your idea is similar. Never going to happen.

[Shifty McSwift]

Nesutizale, on 02 July 2017 - 05:23 AM, said:

How about adding heat to the Gauss?
While I am pretty in favor for lore I think the low heat of the Gauss was broken in TT and its even more in MWO.

Heat during charge up IMO, works for several reasons.

[Nesutizale]

We could still have the original heatscale. Not preventing alphas but forcing some consequenzes on you like not beeing able to go back hiding and hammering that override button like crazy.

Also the Jumpmechanic as to be redone, as someone mentioned above. Jumping shouldn't have a sweet spot from where you can fire without pentalty. Either keep the crosshair shaking or reduce the damage that is done.
Mechs where not meant to fly.

Edited by Nesutizale, 02 July 2017 - 06:49 AM.

[Snowbluff]

DGTLDaemon, on 02 July 2017 - 05:46 AM, said:

The problem with Energy Draw was that it gave a huge boost to PPFLD. 30 points of pinpoint damage was still decent, while 30 points of damage spread over the burn duration was crap.

Lies.
It was a strict nerf to PPFLD. 30 is under par.

Duration based weapons could have their energy draw values adjusted, just like spread weapons were.

So it was the perfect solution to a problem everyone wanted fixed, that is now rearing its ugly head. A pity.

[Y E O N N E]

Koniving, on 02 July 2017 - 05:31 AM, said:

PGI had something that covered this. It was called Ghost Heat 2.0 aka Energy Draw.

Seems no one liked it.

Nobody liked it because, by capping alpha strikes, it forced the game to revolve around DPS. With the game revolving around DPS, Clans were winning without any checks because the heatsinks they could bring made it so. It wasn't until you got to Assaults, where Clans got slot-limited, that the IS could start competing and even then it was only 'Mechs like the MAL-MX90.

I was there, we tested this. GAR and KDK-5 were OP in that system.

[Koniving]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

Nobody liked it because, by capping alpha strikes, it forced the game to revolve around DPS. With the game revolving around DPS, Clans were winning without any checks because the heatsinks they could bring made it so. It wasn't until you got to Assaults, where Clans got slot-limited, that the IS could start competing and even then it was only 'Mechs like the MAL-MX90.

I was there, we tested this. GAR and KDK-5 were OP in that system.

They win via alpha strikes too, so I'm not sure why that mattered all that much? Their energy dissipation can simply be set to be slower than IS energy draw dissipation.

And Gargoyle being OP in anything? That'd take a miracle.
(Side note: In DPS battles with my Inner Sphere builds versus typical Clan builds, I almost always win a frontal face-to-face engagement. In general we tend to win DPS except in some instances; and those are quickly disappearing due to the new weapon systems.)

Also: DPS isn't a bad thing. MWO would have been a lot better off if it was designed that way from the start, with FLD weapons being much slower to reload and DPS weapons being DOT (damage over time), with those that are higher in the time factor of DOT to achieve their damage being able to net more than a single rating within the selected span of time (5 or 10 seconds or something in between). Sadly MWO wasn't designed around this and everything would have to be redesigned from scratch to accommodate it.

Edited by Koniving, 02 July 2017 - 07:05 AM.

[Snowbluff]

I agree, Koniving. My IS mechs tend to use more Autocannons, so the DPS is cool and consistent. I hammered down a Supernova in my Warhammer pretty quickly given the opportunity.

Yeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

Nobody liked it because, by capping alpha strikes, it forced the game to revolve around DPS.

Just like how people don't like it now, with the game revolving around alpha strikes. Clans can make a huge 70+ point alpha under the current rules.

Edited by Snowbluff, 02 July 2017 - 07:05 AM.

[kapusta11]

What is the problem here? Dual Gauss Dual ERPPC loadout was around since clan invasion. Gauss had 3x max range and both Gauss and ERPPC had lower cooldown.

Maybe we should stop nerfing alternative play styles, like cSPL brawling, nerfing SRM missile spread, nerfing mid range laser poking, nerfing lights, hell, nerfing LRMs, etc?

And even if you nerf Gauss PPC, what then? You have to nerf everything else because that tonnage has to be filled with something, and that something is not that far behind Gauss PPC sniping.

Edited by kapusta11, 02 July 2017 - 07:06 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Koniving, on 02 July 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

They win via alpha strikes too, so I'm not sure why that mattered all that much? Their energy dissipation can simply be set to be slower than IS energy draw dissipation.

And Gargoyle being OP in anything? That'd take a miracle.

They don't always win via alpha strikes. Right now, from 350-ish meters, the IS are quite competitive with the Clans thanks to their shorter laser burns. They also have ERLL boats which are competitive.

But Clans vs. IS is only one part. A game where everything revolves around maximum sustained damage is even more boring than what we have now, because you've pigeonholed everybody into one playstyle: push push push push push. You can just sit out in the open and lase for days with impunity because nobody can hit you hard enough to force you down. At least in the current game, there is a time and a place for poking and pushing.

Gargoyle was always pretty strong up close. Energy Draw made it really strong at range, too.

Snowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 07:04 AM, said:

Just like how people don't like it now, with the game revolving around alpha strikes. Clans can make a huge 70+ point alpha under the current rules.

With lasers. They can also roast themselves and be pushed on when doing so, so there's a drawback.

People don't know what they want, now. And chances are, they won't want the later change, either.

[Koniving]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

They don't always win via alpha strikes. Right now, from 350-ish meters, the IS are quite competitive with the Clans thanks to their shorter laser burns. They also have ERLL boats which are competitive.

But Clans vs. IS is only one part. A game where everything revolves around maximum sustained damage is even more boring than what we have now, because you've pigeonholed everybody into one playstyle: push push push push push. You can just sit out in the open and lase for days with impunity because nobody can hit you hard enough to force you down. At least in the current game, there is a time and a place for poking and pushing.

In which we uncover the core problem about MWO. Everything is about maximum damage in some form or another. There isn't really a scale teetering back and forth as to whether DPS or Alpha is better as if they were incomparables. MWO is very clear cut which does in fact lead to a boring atmosphere.

If everything is DPS or Alpha, well... it sucks. There's a lack of imbalance, and as such a lack of balance beyond who can do X the fastest.

In the Hypothetical thread, we have a discussion about DOT mechanics in which DPS is just a factor and FLD weapon setups both upclose and far away still play significant roles. After all if your medium laser is churning 0.2 second beams of 1.25 damage for a total of 4 shots within 10 seconds, and someone else has a Hollander with a Gauss Rifle that he can only fire once in 10 seconds but delivers 15 damage, despite the prevalence of DPS weapons and mechanics, that Gauss Rifle is a huge threat... unless you can get close after he fires, then he's helpless. There you go, I just introduced a crapload of tactical options with this scenario alone.

In MWO the situation of medium lasers to Gauss Rifle(s) is who can shoot faster and more accurately. In the hypothetical concept though, 1x armor means you can devastate him if you're quick and skilled enough and so positioned, but if you take too long he only needs that one shot and good aim to ruin your day or end your life. Dynamic gameplay.

This video elaborates even more on the idea but using World of Tanks for their example.

Quote

Gargoyle was always pretty strong up close. Energy Draw made it really strong at range, too.

I've never had any luck with Gargoyles in MWO. Except pure laser builds.

(Sorry for the delay in adding/fixing what was said, I had a problem where my connection was slower than dialup for no reason. Turns out the net box was overheating so I had to shove it in the freezer for a bit.)

Edited by Koniving, 02 July 2017 - 08:06 AM.