66 replies to this topic

[DGTLDaemon]

Snowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 07:04 AM, said:

Clans can make a huge 70+ point alpha under the current rules.

The highest-alpha mech I currently own is SNV-1 with 2xLPL+6xMPL, and I don't think you can go any higher without breaking ghost heat. That's 69 points of damage spread over 0.9-1.09 seconds with the optimal range of 330 and maximum range of 561, after which you can only graze your opponent with LPLs. Alternatively, you can go with 2xLPL+6xERML: 66 points of damage over 1.09-1.25 seconds with the optimal range of 405 and maximum range of 688. Compare that to a 2xGauss+2xERPPC build: 50 points of pinpoint damage with zero duration plus 10 points of splash damage with the optimal range of 660 m. I think PPFLD is clearly in a better position right now compared to laser vomit.

[Snowbluff]

DGTLDaemon, on 02 July 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

The highest-alpha mech I currently own is SNV-1 with 2xLPL+6xMPL, and I don't think you can go any higher without breaking ghost heat. That's 69 points of damage spread over 0.9-1.09 seconds with the optimal range of 330 and maximum range of 561, after which you can only graze your opponent with LPLs. Alternatively, you can go with 2xLPL+6xERML: 66 points of damage over 1.09-1.25 seconds with the optimal range of 405 and maximum range of 688. Compare that to a 2xGauss+2xERPPC build: 50 points of pinpoint damage with zero duration plus 10 points of splash damage with the optimal range of 660 m. I think PPFLD is clearly in a better position right now compared to laser vomit.

Uh, thanks for the math check, but you're commenting on PPFLD being a better spot for clans, when it would be nerfed heavily by adding energy draw. My point wasn't that Laser vom is better than PPFLD, but that clans have higher alphas, making the complaint that under ED clan DPS was better was moot at best. I was just giving an example of how Clan Alphas are higher than IS ones.

[Pjwned]

DGTLDaemon, on 02 July 2017 - 04:53 AM, said:

So, PPFLD builds based on the Gauss+ERPPC combo are appparently causing enough concern to PGI so that they have repeatedly nerfed a number of chassis capable of supporting such builds. But instead of targeting mechs that can also run a number of other, non-OP builds, I propose targeting the offending loadout. The game already has a hard-coded limit of 2 Gauss rifles that can be fired at a time, and it was implemented for that very reason: to prevent obsene PPFLD alphas at long range. Gauss+ERPPC builds circumvent this limit by combining two different PPFLD weapon systems. So, why not apply the limit to both weapons? Make it simple: if you fire any number of Gauss rifles, you have to wait 0.5 seconds before you fire any number of ERPPCs, and vice versa. This way, builds like 2xGauss+2xERPPC will remain viable, but they will have to stagger their shots. And PGI can then base their balancing decisions on the chassis' overall performance rather than a single offending loadout which allows the mech to rise above the power curve. Any thoughts, gentlemen?

You mean a garbage solution that won't fix anything? Because that's what it is.

Want an actually good solution that actually fixes problems? Fix the convergence.

Also, use some paragraphs.

[Wildstreak]

Koniving, on 02 July 2017 - 05:31 AM, said:

PGI had something that covered this. It was called Ghost Heat 2.0 aka Energy Draw.

Energy Draw was a complicated way of avoiding a simple solution.

[Koniving]

Wildstreak, on 02 July 2017 - 07:59 AM, said:

Energy Draw was a complicated way of avoiding a simple solution.

True.

The simple solution being to remove the ghost heat altogether and directly address the issues by making their firing rates and stats to be significantly less homogeneous.

The simpler solution is to cut the thresholds, make the ACs non-FLD, and keep the firing rate of Gauss weapons very low.

Better but less simple, is to redo it from the ground up using lessons from all the mistakes made.

[B0oN]

Dear OP .
No .

[Nesutizale]

How about this one

You build up heat, you loose mobility first, then you loose accuracy and when you still don't get it that you should stop shooting you shut down.

[Y E O N N E]

Koniving, on 02 July 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

In MWO the situation of medium lasers to Gauss Rifle(s) is who can shoot faster and more accurately. In the hypothetical concept though, 1x armor means you can devastate him if you're quick and skilled enough and so positioned, but if you take too long he only needs that one shot and good aim to ruin your day or end your life. Dynamic gameplay.

You can already close up on a Gauss boat fast enough and with enough output that it becomes a contest of who can get the damage where they want it sooner, as you described in your post. A contest of skill. You can't do it with Medium lasers, mind you, but you can do it with pulse lasers or SRMs. There's also the torso pitch mechanic which can be exploited against the likes of the Battlemaster, Night Gyr, Mauler, etc.

So, ironically (or not), that hypothetical concept is already how MWO is...just not in public queue because the people who play this game are, frankly, miserable at it.

[Khobai]

Quote

You build up heat, you loose mobility first, then you loose accuracy and when you still don't get it that you should stop shooting you shut down.

except gauss generates next to no heat

so all the people who arnt using gauss are getting penalized, and the people using gauss are completely unpenalized

the problem right now isnt the weapons that generate heat. its the weapons that generate very little heat. specifically gauss.

gauss needs a huge nerf. its still way too good because it ignores one of the fundamental rules of battletech which says weapons that do more damage generate more heat. high pinpoint damage, combined with long range, combined with almost no heat is a broken combination. Especially due to its affinity with PPCs which are the perfect complement to gauss.

linking gauss and PPCs in the same ghost heat group would be a good start. if ghost heat is going to kick in when you fire more than two PPCs than logically ghost heat should also kick in if you fire two PPCs and two gauss. You should not be able to circumvent ghost heat by mixing different yet similar weapons, that is an abusive loophole, and PGI needs to shut it down.

Edited by Khobai, 02 July 2017 - 08:54 AM.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Khobai, on 02 July 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

linking gauss and PPCs in the same ghost heat group would be a good start. if ghost heat is going to kick in when you fire more than two PPCs than logically ghost heat should also kick in if you fire two PPCs and two gauss. You should not be able to circumvent ghost heat by mixing different yet similar weapons, that is an abusive loophole, and PGI needs to shut it down.

This is probably the best solution. >2 in any combination inflicts ghost heat from the ERPPCs.

Also avoids nerfing the weapons for builds that are fine, and the offending chassis for non-ppfld builds.

I suspect we'll just see more nerfs to the Night Gyr though.

[Koniving]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

You can already close up on a Gauss boat fast enough and with enough output that it becomes a contest of who can get the damage where they want it sooner, as you described in your post. A contest of skill. You can't do it with Medium lasers, mind you, but you can do it with pulse lasers or SRMs. There's also the torso pitch mechanic which can be exploited against the likes of the Battlemaster, Night Gyr, Mauler, etc.

So, ironically (or not), that hypothetical concept is already how MWO is...just not in public queue because the people who play this game are, frankly, miserable at it.

In your own words, you effectively need the more front loaded weapons in order to achieve it. FLD vs Semi-FLD isn't quite FLD vs DPS. In the end, everything relies on FLD in MWO, or it is considered to be "woefully underpowered." So while the concept is somewhat there, it's also quite incomplete. And that makes me a very sad puppy. But that's why I work on the stuff I work on. And who knows, maybe one day I'll be able to take my crack at a BT Sim. Or maybe I'll use all I learn and conceptualize to make an inspired semi-knockoff franchise.

Or maybe it'll all remain a fantasy in my head and maybe in a few animations.
(I'm currently working on a faction warfare style introduction and planetary campaign concept, with a story-esque narration, some description of gameplay, reference images [using Megamek], and the intent to rival the popularity of this Faction Warfare concept which netted a total of 131 likes on its original posting and an additional 27 likes in a subsequent repost on a related but ultimately unpopular thread. We'll see how well received it is when I'm done.)

Edited by Koniving, 02 July 2017 - 10:15 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

The notion of adding heat to gauss charge isn't something I believe to be a necessity, but it would add an extra level of balancing to the gauss system, and would deter things like keeping the charge timer feathered at all times.

In practice gauss as is, has a pretty good level of balance to it, its just the lack of heat is a massive distinction and departure from the rest of the guns in the game.

Honestly I am more in the mindset that PPCs are the real problem, people are so used to having these infinite ammo PPFLD machines with their only major downfall as heat it keeps any sense of alternate balancing mechanics down. One of my thoughts toward PPCs is to make most if not all of them have a level of splash, at least that is a secondary point of fact for the weapons balancing, allowing them to cost less heat in general.

[Dogstar]

Don't tell anyone but I've discovered that a few IS mechs can do 1xgauss+2xppc and it's quite good fun to play

With 15-20% ballistic cooldown quirks on things like the Zeus you can actually pump out a fair bit of gauss damage and the twin PPCs plus a backup weapon or three just sweeten it up.

Nerfing gauss+ppc would penalise both sides - it's the excessively good clan gauss and clan erppc that makes clan gauss+ppc overpowered

Edited by Dogstar, 02 July 2017 - 10:21 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Koniving, on 02 July 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

In your own words, you effectively need the more front loaded weapons in order to achieve it. FLD vs Semi-FLD isn't quite FLD vs DPS. In the end, everything relies on FLD in MWO, or it is considered to be "woefully underpowered." So while the concept is somewhat there, it's also quite incomplete.

It's also always FLD in World of Tanks.

I can scoot up under the guns of those listed 'Mechs with MedLas and take them out with impunity; I've tone it several times with a Locust. I've watched a Commando hug a Night Gyr to death. The thing is, that requires a very specific set of requirements to happen. I have to be fast, I have to be mobile, and he has to have a 'Mech with guns that can't pitch well. And you know what? That's fine. That's appropriate Otherwise, it's too powerful. With standard armor and 10 second cycles for all of the guns, the only thing that changes is the Locust wins almost every time because he's that fast and fitting and firing six MedLas is easily doable using TT heat values and mechanics. And if you set the Gauss back to no-charge, then it wins more often again.

Congratulations, you've successfully made the game even more point-and-clicky.

At any rate, it doesn't always rely on FLD in MWO. An appropriate laser boat will make mincemeat of a FLD wielder above 700 meters and below 350 meters. Even a mixed build will. In between is where FLD thrives, and even then it's only really the one singular 'Mech that can truly pop-tart ferociously that's doing it.

[Koniving]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

It's also always FLD in World of Tanks.

I can scoot up under the guns of those listed 'Mechs with MedLas and take them out with impunity; I've tone it several times with a Locust. I've watched a Commando hug a Night Gyr to death. The thing is, that requires a very specific set of requirements to happen. I have to be fast, I have to be mobile, and he has to have a 'Mech with guns that can't pitch well. And you know what? That's fine. That's appropriate Otherwise, it's too powerful. With standard armor and 10 second cycles for all of the guns, the only thing that changes is the Locust wins almost every time because he's that fast and fitting and firing six MedLas is easily doable using TT heat values and mechanics. And if you set the Gauss back to no-charge, then it wins more often again.

Congratulations, you've successfully made the game even more point-and-clicky.

At any rate, it doesn't always rely on FLD in MWO. An appropriate laser boat will make mincemeat of a FLD wielder above 700 meters and below 350 meters. Even a mixed build will. In between is where FLD thrives, and even then it's only really the one singular 'Mech that can truly pop-tart ferociously that's doing it.

It goes quite a bit further than that. You can find the details across the Hypothetical thread, but basically:

Spoiler

• standard lasers are either many shots of super short beams (0.1 to 0.2 seconds and several shots to net the 5 damage of an ML) or Beam types that act more like Star Trek Phasers / MWO Lasers.
  
• ACs and LB-X follow the Rapid Fire Autocannon rule, basically making them similar to UACs but with the additional risks associated with them. ACs and UACs have semi-FLD and DPS-oriented variants; DPS-oriented variants have benefits for the skilled that can allow them to push the restrictions of "one or two ratings per time slice" as well as being able to fire when you need them without down time. (Bigger caliber AC/5s might be changing cassettes, but lower caliber ones might be belt fed.)
  
• LB-X act as a cross between ACs and Mech Rifles, and their 'pellets' are actually secondary munitions which launch deploy from the projectile within X range of the target, delivering its 'shotgun effect' with numerous secondary explosions (thus allowing for their increased accurate range and high effectiveness). When equipped with 'standard' munitions, these are similar to Mech Rifle shells but without the drawbacks (and not as FLD).
  
• Missiles are either FLD, or faster reloading versions use weaker missiles with a proportional increase in missiles per ton.
  
• Mech Rifles are FLD, which while nearly useless in tabletop would make them exceptionally useful in the hypothetical sim, except they don't benefit from the use twice in time slice rule.
  
• All weapons and equipment have variants produced by different manufacturers with different traits, common models can fit most 'Mechs but specialized ones sort of 'help' under performing mechs in place of quirks. In a way you can pick and choose weapon variants for weapons you want that better suit your style of play. Frontal brawlers high in armor might favor more DPS-oriented weapons for the advantages in DOT mechanics that these can bring them. Twisty Brawlers might favor more FLD versions of the same or similar weapons, more interested in the more immediate delivery than the long term benefits, fully aware of the significantly higher immediate heat costs that come with them and the long down times they may face.
  
• Threshold is at 30 and BT Heat Scale Penalties for staying at certain heats or above for a length of time, but heatsinks have a separate threshold, though how fill they get also determine their ability to absorb heat away from the Mech Threshold.
  
• Weapons and specific equipment also has their OWN heat levels, allowing for canonical issues such as machine gun overheat (an MG's heat buildup is insignificant to the mech but it is significant to the weapon system as is frequently mentioned in numerous BT TRO descriptions from the Goliath to various tanks which also mention heat related jamming). The addition of weapon specific overheat also allows for mechanics such as Burst Fire MGs without them becoming too overpowered by providing it as a human-skill-based ability. Of course, since every weapon system has this, DPS weapons can try to play the "don't fill the bar too quickly" game to make damage gains. More FLD ones won't be able to tease the bar, and semi-FLD autocannons if pushed too quickly after a reload might not even be able to complete double its rating before hitting either the temporary or permanent penalties.
  
• The 11 hitbox system is supplemented with a sub hitbox system, and armor for a section (say the arm) is divided among these sub-sections. Players can then destroy specific parts of the arm. For example if a mech only has the weapons on the lower arm, then simply taking out the elbow will help remove them [and yet the enemy will still have the upper arm to use as a bullet soak]. Or if the threat of a melee weapon is too imposing, attempting to remove the melee weapon would be a lot easier than trying to remove the entire arm. As such, simply punching through or destroying part of a side torso isn't quite enough, and won't be instantly killing mechs.
  
• Of course this means an FLD weapon such as the Gauss Rifle is serious overkill and will actually punch through one mech to potentially hit another with the remaining damage. A Heavy Gauss as such might be punching through three or four mechs before it's done.

So I'm sure there would be a lot of clicking in this hypothetical sim, but much less point and click insta-killing, except maybe at very hard to hit and armored sweet spots around the cockpit and the engine compartments.

You'd be more likely to ward off a second swarm after the first one already successfully opened the hatch to get into your cockpit, unless someone was kind enough to hold still for you. After all, you only get one shot per Gauss Rifle per 10 seconds; and sure one shot would be enough to do in the cockpit, but it wouldn't be enough to do in the engine, not even an ISXL...unless it was a damn lucky triple crit.

Also bonus points for remembering the famous Koniving quote on McGral18's signature.

Edited by Koniving, 02 July 2017 - 11:13 AM.

[Coolant]

I'm all for nerfing PPC + Gauss in any form. Make the cooldown 15+ seconds when a PPC and Gauss are equipped.

[Brain Cancer]

Nesutizale, on 02 July 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

How about this one

You build up heat, you loose mobility first, then you loose accuracy and when you still don't get it that you should stop shooting you shut down.

The fact that years into the game we still don't have a heat scale more complex than "No effect till over 100%, then you melt" is one that points to a balancing tool that's been basically ignored.

Using nothing to prevent perfect, instant convergence is another. Seriously, we shoot things most of the time and don't even need so much as a sensor lock. All it'd take is a default mode without lockon that convergences out to a set distance, and the current norm once you get a paperdoll.

[El Bandito]

Im fine with forced chain fire on dual goose dual peeps loadout. In fact I suggested it in the first place back in 2014.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

If you ******** idiots would quit calling for the nerfing of everything like cSPL/isMPL brawling, SRM cruisers, or AC gun boats then the jumptart PPFLD boogeyman would go away.

[FupDup]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 02 July 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

If you ******** idiots would quit calling for the nerfing of everything like cSPL/isMPL brawling, SRM cruisers, or AC gun boats then the jumptart PPFLD boogeyman would go away.

The Law of Unintended Consequences™ is a part of the daily reality of MWO's meta.

Although really, the IS MPL actually got buffed recently.