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Bring Back Energy Draw?


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#1 Snowbluff

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:12 AM

Considering the issues with RACs and Light PPCs in the game, people have been wondering if we're better off with energy draw than Ghost Heat Penalties.

Ghost Heat wasn't made with Light PPCs in mind. Ghost Heat can't properly keep up with RAC fire rates (hell, even AC2) fire rates.

I understand that people had issues with a DPS game, and how it could favor the clans, but doesn't an Alpha centric game currently favor the clans?

I understand that PPFLD was relatively good. However, energy draw does allow the draw value to be changed, so duration weapons could be buffed by lowering their draw, just like spread weapons were.

Edited by Snowbluff, 02 July 2017 - 07:12 AM.


#2 kapusta11

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:24 AM

No.

#3 Snowbluff

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:34 AM

View Postkapusta11, on 02 July 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

No.

Yes.

The current tools is inadequate to handle the new weapons.

#4 Yeonne Greene

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:36 AM

View PostSnowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

Yes.

The current tools is inadequate to handle the new weapons.


Sure they are. None of the new weapons save the lasers can be boated in any of the ways they should to actually compete, and the lasers are toasty AF.

Success.

#5 Nesutizale

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:37 AM

How I see it

Ghostheat
As you mentioned, can't keep up with all the different weapons and their combinations to get around Ghostheat beeing triggered.
I think the system starts to break down. Adding more weapons or other systems in the future makes it even worse.

Energiedraw (Fresh me up if I get this one wrong.)
It basicly capped damage that could be done without penalty. What it did IIRC was to take the damage of a weapon and say "if you do more then 30 damage with any kind of weapon combination you will receive additional ghostheat, even if these different weaponsystems where not meant to have ghostheat as they are different types.

I don't like it for reasons:
1) Adding it to ghostheat made a terrible mess in players beeing able to understand how these systems work together.
2) Finding the right cap. With a cap of 30 new weapons like the MRM40 would screw the system except you give it a lesser energie draw value but then you would create a presedens case for haveing other artificial set values instead of realy capping the damage that can be done in one go.
3) Capping damage is bad. Doing an alpha should have its damage but instead of restricting it in such a roundabout way it should come as a risk reward option.

Heatscale (the original TT system slightly modified)
The old TT system wasn't capping anything, it was easy to understand, could increase TTK while keeping alphas an option and works with any kind of weapon combination.

It needs some tweaking to work in MWO but it offers more depth to the game then ghostheat or energydraw can.

You can see my topic about the changes here https://mwomercs.com...eting-movement/

#6 Snowbluff

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:42 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

Sure they are. None of the new weapons save the lasers can be boated in any of the ways they should to actually compete, and the lasers are toasty AF.

Success.
Well, the RACs are positively busted under the system. They're literally bugged. :l

View PostNesutizale, on 02 July 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:


Heatscale (the original TT system slightly modified)
The old TT system wasn't capping anything, it was easy to understand, could increase TTK while keeping alphas an option and works with any kind of weapon combination.

It needs some tweaking to work in MWO but it offers more depth to the game then ghostheat or energydraw can.

You can see my topic about the changes here https://mwomercs.com...eting-movement/

Well, absolutely not. It's a bad system inherently entirely wrong in every way imaginable for this game. A heat scale worked better when they game wasn't live. Light would get butchered more than normal as well.

Saying ED w/ Ghost heat is unlikely. Who honestly expects to have both systems present at the same time.

#7 davoodoo

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:45 AM

View PostSnowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

Well, the RACs are positively busted under the system. They're literally bugged. :l

and theyll be even worse under energy draw as constant fire wont let energy recover leading to you being unable to use anything else while rac fires and in case of rac5 even possibly it capping energy alone.

#8 Yeonne Greene

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:46 AM

View PostSnowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

Well, the RACs are positively busted under the system. They're literally bugged. :l


Those aren't alpha strike weapons? Can't be alpha strike weapons?

Honestly, I was more referring to the PPC class and Heavy laser class, both of which have crazy ghost heat schema or preemptive nerfs to their damage. And then there's HGauss which, while accurate to TT, is basically useless as a close-range weapon because it requires a very slow 'Mech and charge time...all for 5 more points of damage than the otherwise superior AC/20.

View Postdavoodoo, on 02 July 2017 - 07:45 AM, said:

and theyll be even worse under energy draw as constant fire wont let energy recover leading to you being unable to use anything else while rac fires and in case of rac5 even possibly it capping energy alone.


Also that.

#9 Snowbluff

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:52 AM

Wasn't the base energy recovery like 10/second? So a RAC5 does 10/sec damage, or you can fire 2 for 3 seconds before heating.

Also if they're so bad, just lower the draw value. It's that simple. Same with heavy gauss. Heavy Gauss is useless now, so you could make a 20 point draw, so it makes a PPFLD of 35 with a PPC, giving at niche at least.

#10 Yeonne Greene

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:54 AM

View PostSnowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

Wasn't the base energy recovery like 10/second? So a RAC5 does 10/sec damage, or you can fire 2 for 3 seconds before heating.

Also if they're so bad, just lower the draw value. It's that simple. Same with heavy gauss. Heavy Gauss is useless now, so you could make a 20 point draw, so it makes a PPFLD of 35 with a PPC, giving at niche at least.


Not a useful niche when we're firing 30 + 30 damage laser volleys with a mere 1.5 second gap while you've got 35 points and then a nice, long 5 second gap by nature of the weapon.

Energy Draw kills alpha-striking gameplay entirely, and that is bad.

#11 davoodoo

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:58 AM

1)Energy didnt regen when firing.
Sure we could make exception for racs so energy will continue to regen, but then why not simply make exception in ghost heat where it will trigger at 0.1s intervals instead of 0.5s
or just drop ghost heat on racs completely, at best youll fit 4 rac5 and 2 rac2, hardly a scary loadout.

2)heavy gauss is accurate to tt, when everything else isnt.
Heavy gauss should have double the short range of medium laser, yet medium laser outranges it in mwo.
This makes it absolute crap.

Now also because of recoil after firing, you wont add ppc to it because it wont hit the target or at the very least itll hit another part.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 July 2017 - 08:01 AM.


#12 Nesutizale

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 08:03 AM

View PostSnowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

Well, absolutely not. It's a bad system inherently entirely wrong in every way imaginable for this game. A heat scale worked better when they game wasn't live. Light would get butchered more than normal as well.

Saying ED w/ Ghost heat is unlikely. Who honestly expects to have both systems present at the same time.


Lights wouldn't get buchered at all. Everyone would have to reduce the amount of weaponfire or risk becomeing easy pray for those who actualy controll their heat levels. Lights are also in the nice position that most of their weapons produce little heat compared to the more heavy weapons. That way they can keep up more DPS then others.

What I can agree on that people will have to change their style of play. You are still thinking that riding the red line is the only way to play. Forget about this stupid On/Off play mechanic. It dosn't represent battletech at all.

#13 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 08:04 AM

i actually liked Energy Draw, it allowed for 3IS-PPCs to be fired at one time,
which people had been asking for for forever, it made sence and was easy to understand,

you had a Energy bar that had 30Units, each point of damage you dealt would increase the bar by 1unit,
when you hit the end of the bar(30Units/Damage) you would start to incur more heat for ever point over,
the bar would deplete at 10Units per half a Second(1.5seconds for full bar depletion)

spread weapons like Lasers LBX and LRMs damage counted as 0.75per Damage,
so 2LRM20s / 2LBX20s would only count as 30Damage(15damage a piece)

i believe it was easier to explain to new players, vs Ghost heat,
and i feel it could be tuned better than Ghost heat, it also closed the 6ml 2lpl GH loop-hole,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 02 July 2017 - 08:37 AM.


#14 Yeonne Greene

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 08:07 AM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 02 July 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

i actually liked Energy Draw, it allowed for 3IS-PPCs to be fired at one time,
which people had been asking for for forever, it made sence and was easy to understand,


At that point though, it didn't matter anymore. So, Pyrrhic Victory on that...

#15 Nesutizale

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 08:09 AM

Why not just have one scale to look at? No strange recalculation of values with "your weapon does heat but you have also calculate the damage in but not for LBX there its different"

You build up heat, according to what it says in the mechlab, no special cases.
At a certain point of heat buildup you will start to slow down or hit less often.

Its simple and easy.

#16 MechaBattler

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 08:39 AM

People would rage out if they tried.

#17 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 08:51 AM

View PostSnowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 07:52 AM, said:

Wasn't the base energy recovery like 10/second? So a RAC5 does 10/sec damage, or you can fire 2 for 3 seconds before heating.

Also if they're so bad, just lower the draw value. It's that simple. Same with heavy gauss. Heavy Gauss is useless now, so you could make a 20 point draw, so it makes a PPFLD of 35 with a PPC, giving at niche at least.

Energy gen was 10 every Half a Sec, back to full Energy in 1.5seconds(30Energy)

a single RAC2 fires 32Shells @ 0.50Dam/Shell before the Jam bar is full, and it has a Chance to Jam(32x0.5=16Damage)
a single RAC5 fires 32Shells @ 1.25Dam/Shell before the Jam bar is full, and it has a Chance to Jam(32x0.5=40Damage)
(RAC burst is i think 2second) i cant remember if Energy regenerated wail firing but i guess if it did theirs no problem,

also if they put RACs with Laser, LBX & LRMs as spread weapons @75%,
then you could fire 2RAC5s(80x0.75=60) 2seonds Burst = 30(Starting Energy) +40(2seconds) = 70Energy,
so it would actually fully work for 2RAC5s and be easy to understand and calculate,

View PostYeonne Greene, on 02 July 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

Not a useful niche when we're firing 30 + 30 damage laser volleys with a mere 1.5 second gap while you've got 35 points and then a nice, long 5 second gap by nature of the weapon.

Energy Draw kills alpha-striking gameplay entirely, and that is bad.

not really, most high Alpha Bursts (6ML+2LPL) would have to be split up to work,
IS-6ML+2LPL= 50Damage Alpha(37.5Energy) could be fired as 6ML Wait 0.5sec(10energy regen) then 2LPL,
C-6ML+2LPL= 59Damage Alpha(49.5Energy) could be fired as 5ML Wait 1sec(20energy regen) then 1ML+2LPL,

its not that you couldnt go over 30Damage, but Heat ramped up when past 30Damage,
10points of damage over was only about 5-10 extra heat, past 15 points though heat went up crazy,
i remember 40point alphas where possible and were used often but players still wanting that high alpha feel,
Alpha builds that were still used were (IS-6ML+2LPL(+7.5heat) & (C-5ML+2LPL(+18.5heat)

View PostMechaBattler, on 02 July 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

People would rage out if they tried.

well people usually rage, no matter whats done, Posted Image

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 02 July 2017 - 09:11 AM.


#18 kapusta11

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:08 AM

View PostSnowbluff, on 02 July 2017 - 07:34 AM, said:

Yes.

The current tools is inadequate to handle the new weapons.


New weapons are shіt compared to current ones.

#19 davoodoo

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:12 AM

View Postkapusta11, on 02 July 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:


New weapons are shіt compared to current ones.

Pretty much.

Only weapons without problems are is version of clan weapons which had no problems.

#20 Twinkleblade

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:14 AM

I would prefer for Energy Draw to partially come back.

Remove all ghost heat, refire penalty for ballistics and maybe PPC. Like the RAC if you fill a refire bar your reticule will start shaking like heavy gauss similar to HBS Battletech refire penalty.. If you keep overdoing the refire maybe we can get a knockdown on the mech. Refire threshold based on weight class. Assault can fire dual AC20 with some screenshake after, heavies heavy shake after dual AC20, mediums trip over, lights...yeah...no, you get the idea. Multi shot ballistics fill refire penalty bar slower but their constant fire will add on faster then single shot AC. Dual UAC20 can actually knock down an assault if used too much.
Betty can give us a gyro overloaded message if you trip over from too much refire.
Refire penalty goes back down over time not firing ballistics. When holding still dissipates faster then when moving.


Missiles similar but instead missiles start spreading more and more maybe also add a tiny bit of refire penalty. Dunno why missiles should behave like this but sounds interesting, maybe the sheer amount of missiles in the air messes with the other missiles target system so they space out more, maybe space magic? Mechs that add a missile pod can have improved missile threshold before they start spreading. Think Mauler, griffins with super good missile thresholds when missiles are added. Like a tradeoff instead of just adding to the hitbox.

Finally Energy draw only for energy based weapons(including PPC) and gauss weapons, that way PPC and gauss double dip into 2 types of penalties. Make avalaible energy dependent on engine type.
isXL like 30 energy/fast regen , LFE 33 energy/moderate regen and standard 36 energy/slow regen.
heat penalty for up to 10% overdrawing energy. If you decide to go even further you damage your engine. All energy draw related stats reduced by 10%. Stacks up to 3 time for a total of 30% penalty.
ClanXL maybe 28 energy/close to instant regen Clanstandard 32 energy/fast-moderate regen.
Gives more flavor to the different engines and permanent punish for those that think they can go for their super high damage alphas again and again. The heat penalty is exponetial so overdrawing doesnt hurt as much with intact engine. Damage engine 3 times? Pain.
Betty can give us a engine critical warning for each time you damage it.


Sounds a bit much to swallow but its pretty easy to understand if you think about it. This kinda rewards mixed loadouts because because missile/energy builds were punished hard in the first energy draw but now you can safely alpha them. Its only pure boating builds that will be effected most like AC+ PPC mechs, missile boats,
Hexa UAC2 or AC5 maulers(Initial damage same but if you try dps a target down it will become shaky), Dual UAC20 catapults (these hurt I tried, with refire penalty it will actually fall over now).

Numbers are just there to make a point not any actual numbers. Difference between balanced and balancable. Anyone who say convoluted and complex, I will only refer to current PPC, heavy laser and MRM GH rules.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 02 July 2017 - 09:42 AM.






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