34 replies to this topic

[Damnedtroll]

Rusharn, on 03 July 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

Depends, ever been in a clan mech firing an alpha strike when you lose a side torso. You shut down and have to wait to either be destroyed by heat or destroyed by the enemy. It's grand waiting through the slow death.

Majority of times, you can continue to fight a long time if you don't have a asymmetric laser boat and lose all your weapons... yes you can die fast in some situation but slower than a IS XL

[davoodoo]

Rusharn, on 03 July 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

Depends, ever been in a clan mech firing an alpha strike when you lose a side torso. You shut down and have to wait to either be destroyed by heat or destroyed by the enemy. It's grand waiting through the slow death.

You havent put enough dhs or you were too hot and about to shutdown anyway.

Want to know the secret?? clan mechs arent inherently hotter, they however carry more damage and put savings on tonnage into dhs making them cooler than is variants.

Edited by davoodoo, 03 July 2017 - 04:19 PM.

[Savage Wolf]

All of you mentioning that there are advantages to STD engines, we hear you and you are right. But the question is, does that justify the tonnage? I say no. If the difference had been smaller then sure, but they weight double that of XL and 33% more than LFE.

That is why they need a buff. The price is too high for too little gain.

[davoodoo]

Savage Wolf, on 03 July 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

All of you mentioning that there are advantages to STD engines, we hear you and you are right. But the question is, does that justify the tonnage? I say no. If the difference had been smaller then sure, but they weight double that of XL and 33% more than LFE.

That is why they need a buff. The price is too high for too little gain.

For most mechs no it isnt, so it simply wont be used by them.

Light mechs pretty much avoid std engine in favor of xl for more speed and nobody cares...i havent seen threads calling for buffs for std engine on 30 tonners.

Edited by davoodoo, 04 July 2017 - 01:28 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

davoodoo, on 04 July 2017 - 01:28 AM, said:

For most mechs no it isnt, so it simply wont be used by them.

...what?

Seriously, could you rephrase that because I have no idea what you just tried to say.

davoodoo, on 04 July 2017 - 01:28 AM, said:

Light mechs pretty much avoid std engine in favor of xl for more speed and nobody cares...i havent seen threads calling for buffs for std engine on 30 tonners.

That would also be an oddly specific thread. But there are plenty calling for buffs on STD in general (like this one) which would also include lights, so indirectly, yes there are.

[SOL Ranger]

Could open up one more heatsink slot on STD engines and/or one more critical slot on the CT. This would make them somewhat more heat friendly but also still require the extra weight investment to utilise it and also open up interesting survival oriented build options for mechs with CT hardpoints or simply adding more CT fitting space.

IS XL single ST destruction could shut off all maneuvering of the top part of the mech including rotation and arm functionality locking the geometry in its last state but still powering weapons and mobility as before, a devastating effect but not instant death.

Edited by SOL Ranger, 04 July 2017 - 08:29 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Rusharn, on 03 July 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

Depends, ever been in a clan mech firing an alpha strike when you lose a side torso. You shut down and have to wait to either be destroyed by heat or destroyed by the enemy. It's grand waiting through the slow death.

When most of the slots on both torsos and often the arms are heat-sinks, losing a side has a dramatically lower impact than when most of the slots are EndoSteel and/or Light Ferro.

Which is what IS 'Mechs are.

[Cy Mitchell]

I found uses for Standard engines while I was experimenting with Stealth Armor. Losing those torso slots to SA puts a real damper on some builds that are slot starved. So STD engines still have a place.

To bad I could not find a place where I thought Stealth Armor was really as good asset.

[Tarl Cabot]

SOL Ranger, on 04 July 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

.....

IS XL single ST destruction could shut off all maneuvering of the top part of the mech including rotation and arm functionality locking the geometry in its last state but still powering weapons and mobility as before, a devastating effect but not instant death.

Why? The ONLY reason isXL dies to the loss of one ST is Russ/Paul sticking to ONLY ONE PART of engine crits rules instead of using it as a guide, in the same manner as both cXL and now LFE, which has cXL benefits and penalties.

MWO does not have a fully functional engine crit system in place. Engines are crit, HP are used up but NOTHING actually happens. isXL has a flag, if one ST internal structure is completely destroyed, mech is dead. CXL/LFE flag is when one ST internal structure is destroyed, 20% movement penalty/40% heat penalty then if BOTH ST internal structure are destroyed, mech is dead.

Even though BT crit rule is 3 engine crits from ANY location, an actual side torso loss in BT was rare, though ammo explosions sucked. But that game was use probabilities by rolling 2D6 dice and each weapon was rolled, not a weapon group. If we do the crit slot portion isXL 12 slots vs cXL/LFE 10 slots vs STD 6 slots. I included STD because on the TT w/BT rule of 3 engine crits 50% of the engine/shielding is destroyed before the mech is non-functional.

isXL loses 25% of its shielding w/loss 1ST

cXL loses 20% of its shielding w/loss 1ST

And do NOT forget IS components are both bulkier and heavier than Clan components, never mind many Clan weapons have a longer range and do more damage, albeit with longer duration and higher heat vs IS weapons doing less damage, shorter range and duration, generally.

Though, how does your idea really make sense when the differences in shielding loss is 20% to 25%? That is one quarter to one fifth comparison.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 04 July 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[davoodoo]

Savage Wolf, on 04 July 2017 - 07:06 AM, said:

...what?

Seriously, could you rephrase that because I have no idea what you just tried to say.


That would also be an oddly specific thread. But there are plenty calling for buffs on STD in general (like this one) which would also include lights, so indirectly, yes there are.

I said that std would offer no benefit over light for most mechs and thus wont be used by them.

But then we come to mechs like stalkers which are already so starved on crits theyll avoid lights.
Brawly atlases also have plenty of free tonnage with limited crits, again stds.
Marauder with its 2 or 3 torso slots wont use light if it wants to fit some long range ballistics in there and its not like you could actually improve firepower with extra tonnage in any meaningful way.
hbk1p is already crit starved and engine capped.

and thats only from mechs i own and play.

There are plenty of mechs which will retain their stds mostly because they cant be as frugal with crits as clan mechs. Mainly due to 50% bigger dhs.

Edited by davoodoo, 04 July 2017 - 06:43 PM.

[Khobai]

We need engine crits to help balance out the engines better

ISXL = dies to 4 crit slot destructions (instead of 3, which allows it to survive a side torso destruction)

LFE/CXL = dies to 4 crit slot destructions (but theyd be more resilience than ISXL since they only have 2 crit slots per side torso instead of 3 like ISXL does)

STD = immune to crits and crit penalties, can only be destroyed by CT destruction.

Each engine crit would also make the mech suffer a -10% speed and -20% heat dissipation penalty which would stack cumulatively upto three times (max penalty of -30% speed and -60% heat dissipation).

Thats a pretty huge buff for STD engine since it wouldnt suffer crit penalties or ever have to worry about dying to crits.


Also standard structure needs a buff. If standard structure gets used then ferro fibrous will also get used and will actually have a reason to exist in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 04 July 2017 - 07:04 PM.

[davoodoo]

Ferro fibrous got a reason to exist.

Lights use it extensively.

Not every piece of equipment must be used by every mech. Whether its lighter armor, std engine or heavy lasers.

Edited by davoodoo, 04 July 2017 - 07:07 PM.

[Savage Wolf]

davoodoo, on 04 July 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Ferro fibrous got a reason to exist.

Lights use it extensively.

Not every piece of equipment must be used by every mech.

Totally agree.

davoodoo, on 04 July 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Whether its lighter armor, std engine or heavy lasers.

But it does need to be used by some. And that is the problem with the STD engine.

[davoodoo]

Savage Wolf, on 05 July 2017 - 06:23 AM, said:

But it does need to be used by some. And that is the problem with the STD engine.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...51dffd2cb6608da
Best you can do with this build is swap ac20 for uac20.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b22412335a0c265
Imagine this being rac5 marauder, cant use light.

Sure we can stay with uac5 on this one, but then what exactly are using extra 6 tons from light engine for?? more dhs on already very cool mech? best i can think of is throwing 2 light ppc instead of meds to which i answer better to go with racs.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d947d319337d51e
You can upgrade lasers to extra range but what exactly will you do with light remove dhs from laserboat??

Stalkers, i cant come up with decent builds for new tech, but theres simply no chance youll slap light there.

Edited by davoodoo, 05 July 2017 - 07:56 AM.

[Snowbluff]

Khobai, on 04 July 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

We need engine crits to help balance out the engines better

ISXL = dies to 4 crit slot destructions (instead of 3, which allows it to survive a side torso destruction)

LFE/CXL = dies to 4 crit slot destructions (but theyd be more resilience than ISXL since they only have 2 crit slots per side torso instead of 3 like ISXL does)

STD = immune to crits and crit penalties, can only be destroyed by CT destruction.

Each engine crit would also make the mech suffer a -10% speed and -20% heat dissipation penalty which would stack cumulatively upto three times (max penalty of -30% speed and -60% heat dissipation).

Thats a pretty huge buff for STD engine since it wouldnt suffer crit penalties or ever have to worry about dying to crits.


Also standard structure needs a buff. If standard structure gets used then ferro fibrous will also get used and will actually have a reason to exist in the game.

I think we talked about this, but I think we should have engine crits in addition to how it works now.

Engine crits would penalize agility, but are nonlethal if accumulated.