67 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 04 July 2017 - 07:22 PM, said:

Except not really since you can fire two gauss and two PPCs at the same time and still do high PPFLD while circumventing ghost heat entirely.

If youre going to limit PPCs to 2. And limit gauss to 2. Then you also need to limit Gauss+PPC so you cant fire 2+2.

They should link gauss and PPC in the same ghost heat group as a stopgap measure till we get a better version of energy draw (if we ever do). That way you at least have to fire them half a second apart to avoid the ghost heat.

Forcing people to fire them half a second apart seems fair to me.

Not really. 2 gauss hit the same point at the same time (ignoring the effect of the convergence mechanic for the state of simplicity). 2 PPCs hit the same point at the same time. A PPC and a Gauss will hit the same point (ignoring the effect of the convergence mechanic for the state of simplicity) but at a different time. There is a velocity desync, and that is why Gauss and PPCs aren't in the same ghost heat group.

Yeah, I mean most of the time you have to split them up to actually hit what you are aiming for because they don't sync perfectly. Probably won't make much of a difference, potatoes will still be harvested, still whine, Gauss will get nerfed more, life goes on.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 July 2017 - 07:23 PM, said:

Yeah it is. Sorry, I want to still have a MechWarrior game to play not some strung up gimped out version that don't allow mechs to actually use their weapons. This will turn out just like Energy Draw, 10s of thousands of dollars (at least!) wasted on developing some arbitrary mechanic, that ultimately will crash and burn in PTS or will go live and will cause ANOTHER mass exodus of players (which is the last thing the game needs). So why don't we just stop trying to think of great ideas to make TTK longer because a handful of hardcore battletech fans want their nerdgasm sim "feel" that will ultimately just waste everybody's time? If you want to shoot chainfire, shoot chain fire in MechWarrior 5. You can come up with whatever firing pattern you want.

Except nothing in the Steam charts had suggested that a "Mass Exodus" had taken place after big changes, such as Skill Tree change. PGI had stuck to their guts on the new Skill Tree and had it go through several overhauls after player complaints, and it was successful. Pity they didn't have the same determination for the Info Warfare, and Power Draw attempts. We could have had much more immersive game, instead of this mech skinned FPS. And these "handful of hardcore game fans" had made MWO possible in the first place, don't forget.

Gas Guzzler, on 04 July 2017 - 07:29 PM, said:

Not really. 2 gauss hit the same point at the same time (ignoring the effect of the convergence mechanic for the state of simplicity). 2 PPCs hit the same point at the same time. A PPC and a Gauss will hit the same point (ignoring the effect of the convergence mechanic for the state of simplicity) but at a different time. There is a velocity desync, and that is why Gauss and PPCs aren't in the same ghost heat group.

Yeah, I mean most of the time you have to split them up to actually hit what you are aiming for because they don't sync perfectly. Probably won't make much of a difference, potatoes will still be harvested, still whine, Gauss will get nerfed more, life goes on.

It is very very easy to fire the PPCs together with the twin Gauss after they charge. And the velocities are close enough that they will impact virtually at the same time within 600 meter range.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 July 2017 - 07:43 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

A PPC and a Gauss will hit the same point (ignoring the effect of the convergence mechanic for the state of simplicity) but at a different time.

sometimes they hit different points.

they would be FAR more likely to hit different points if you had to fire them half a second apart

again I think its fair

Quote

most of the time you have to split them up to actually hit what you are aiming for because they don't sync perfectly.

if thats true then theres no harm in linking them in the same ghost heat group.

if people are splitting them up anyway, then theres no change.

however if people are firing them simultaneously for 50 PPFLD, thats what needs to be prevented.

I know I fire them simultaneously most of the time. I just target the big slow mechs that are easy to hit.

Edited by Khobai, 04 July 2017 - 07:37 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 04 July 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

Except nothing in the Steam charts had suggested that a "Mass Exodus" had taken place after big changes, such as Skill Tree change. PGI had stuck to their guts on the new Skill Tree and had it go through several overhauls after player complaints, and it was successful. Pity they didn't have the same determination for the Info Warfare, and Power Draw attempts. We could have had much more immersive game, instead of this mech skinned FPS shooter.

Well a high percentage of players I know aren't playing after the Skill Tree, so... Maybe steam charts don't tell everything?

"Mech-skinned FPS shooter" LMAO you should be a politician, you got those bs catch phrases down. You should list out the shooters that this game is like and explain how the movement mechanics, hitpoint mechanics, weapon mechanics, gameplay speed, etc are all the same with the other FPSs. Until then, stop spewing the bs.

Khobai, on 04 July 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

sometimes they hit different points.

they would be FAR more likely to hit different points if you had to fire them half a second apart

again I think its fair



if thats true then theres no harm in linking them in the same ghost heat group.

if people are splitting them up anyway, then theres no change.

however if people are firing them simultaneously for 50 PPFLD, thats what needs to be prevented.

Eh, I perform better in the yolo queue with other combos so I think you are kind of just... not solving anything, but if you really think its worth it so the 50 PPFLD boogeyman isn't violating safespaces then I guess.... Althought its nice the IS finally gets a nice option announced for that loadout (Nightstar) and you want to nerf it... ughhh so annoying. You guys literally just hate fun/variety.

[Khobai]

Quote

Eh, I perform better in the yolo queue with other combos so I think you are kind of just... not solving anything, but if you really think its worth it so the 50 PPFLD boogeyman isn't violating safespaces then I guess.... Althought its nice the IS finally gets a nice option announced for that loadout (Nightstar) and you want to nerf it... ughhh so annoying. You guys literally just hate fun/variety.

Again it doesnt stop you from using 2 gauss, 2 ppc. it just forces you to fire them half a second apart.

According to you most people split them up anyway, so it should make no difference.

And I like fun. But I dont think taking 50 damage instantly to one location is fun.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 04 July 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

Again it doesnt stop you from using 2 gauss, 2 ppc. it just forces you to fire them half a second apart.

According to you most people split them up anyway, so it should make no difference.

And I like fun. But I dont think taking 50 damage instantly to one location is fun.

They do at long range, but at short-mid range or against players that are stationary (their mistake) its nice to be able to punish them with the alpha. Like I said, the DPS is kind of a drawback so I normally score better with higher DPS loadouts on average, but it was nice to have a different playstyle available. We can't have nice things apparently though.

Wait until you get hit with a dual heavy gauss, dual snub nose PPC alpha lolololol

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 04 July 2017 - 07:43 PM.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 July 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

Well a high percentage of players I know aren't playing after the Skill Tree, so... Maybe steam charts don't tell everything?

"Mech-skinned FPS shooter" LMAO you should be a politician, you got those bs catch phrases down. You should list out the shooters that this game is like and explain how the movement mechanics, hitpoint mechanics, weapon mechanics, gameplay speed, etc are all the same with the other FPSs. Until then, stop spewing the bs.

I have no way of verifying your claim regarding these players leaving whether due to MWO being barebones in general, or cause of the skill tree. As for the FPS comment it is bit biased, but MWO really doesn't feel like you are piloting 35 tons of metal instead of a generic jump trooper.

Gas Guzzler, on 04 July 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

Eh, I perform better in the yolo queue with other combos so I think you are kind of just... not solving anything, but if you really think its worth it so the 50 PPFLD boogeyman isn't violating safespaces then I guess.... Althought its nice the IS finally gets a nice option announced for that loadout (Nightstar) and you want to nerf it... ughhh so annoying. You guys literally just hate fun/variety.

I like variety AND fun. Which is why the PPFLD domination needs to be reigned in. Thanks to PPFLD, mechs such as Kodiaks and NGyrs are heavily nerfed in terms of mobility, even though it doesn't make sense. I don't want my MCII to be nerfed after it comes out for C-Bills just cause of PPFLD.

Gas Guzzler, on 04 July 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

Wait until you get hit with a dual heavy gauss, dual snub nose PPC alpha lolololol

That wouldn't happen, if my idea goes through in the first place.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 July 2017 - 07:47 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Wait until you get hit with a dual heavy gauss, dual snub nose PPC alpha lolololol

if gauss and ppcs are linked for ghost heat it prevents that combo too

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 04 July 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

I have no way of verifying your claim regarding these players leaving whether due to MWO being barebones in general, or cause of the skill tree. As for the FPS comment it is bit biased, but MWO really doesn't feel like you are piloting 35 tons of metal instead of a generic jump trooper.




I like variety AND fun. Which is why the PPFLD domination needs to be reigned in. Thanks to PPFLD, mechs such as Kodiaks and NGyrs are heavily nerfed in terms of mobility, even though it doesn't make sense.

Well its not going to feel like that because you are on a computer. In order to get the "feel" you are looking for lights would be garbage, so... gameplay>feel.

I would rather they (KDK and NTG) be balanced that way then have more agility (read: other loadouts takeover with those juicy hardpoint locations) then just gimp the loadout.

PPFLD domination.. laser vomit domination... all this domination that needs to be reigned in. Lets do it right so we are left with multiple viable loadouts and gameplay styles. Kind of like how now you can rock socks with PPFLD or PPFLD+dakka or pure dakka or lasers or lasers+gauss or SRMs or SRMs+large ballistic or lasers+SRMs....

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 04 July 2017 - 07:48 PM.

[ingramli]

El Bandito, on 04 July 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

CACs should simply be removed

I'd say, Clan should have access to the IS' version of AC (ie. heavier, bulkier, but cooler and single slug pinpoint gun), Clan do not have the option of pinpoint ballistic weapon other than the infamous gauss which is for poptart rather than dakka.

[Khobai]

I agree. Clan standard ACs should work exactly like IS standard autocannons.

Clans shouldnt be punished by not having a slug autocannon just because PGI couldnt make ammo switching work on the LBX. Also the CUAC20 needs a huge buff. Its not nearly as good as the IS version.

Alternatively id be okay with Clans getting HAGs and/or their own versions of RACs instead. Clans definitely need SOMETHING to make their heavy ballistic options more diverse than just Gauss.

Edited by Khobai, 04 July 2017 - 07:57 PM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 04 July 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

I agree. Clan standard ACs should work exactly like IS standard autocannons.

Clans shouldnt be punished by not having a slug autocannon just because PGI couldnt make ammo switching work on the LBX. Also the CUAC20 needs a huge buff. Its not nearly as good as the IS version.

Alternatively id be okay with Clans getting HAGs and/or their own versions of RACs instead. Clans definitely need SOMETHING to make their heavy ballistic options more diverse than just Gauss.

CLBXs are lighter and slimmer and have longer range than IS ACs, so these abominations known as CACs will need severe nerfs to other areas have PPFLD.

On that note: IS should get 11 ton, 6 slot AC10 just cause IS LBXs should have had select ammo too! See how complicated it is getting?

ingramli, on 04 July 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

I'd say, Clan should have access to the IS' version of AC (ie. heavier, bulkier, but cooler and single slug pinpoint gun), Clan do not have the option of pinpoint ballistic weapon other than the infamous gauss which is for poptart rather than dakka.

Giving another faction's weapons just like that could open a whole lot of floodgates for requests. After all, why shouldn't IS get 12 ton Gauss that does 15 PPFLD damage?

Edited by El Bandito, 04 July 2017 - 08:12 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

On that note: IS should get 11 ton, 6 slot AC10 just cause IS LBXs should have had select ammo too!

No because PGI said only the Clan LBX would get the ability to swap ammo to make up for the fact they dont have standard autocannons.

So giving clans standard autocannons is simply making up for them not getting LBX that can swap ammo.

Its not complicated at all. Youre overthinking it

Quote

Giving another faction's weapons just like that could open a whole lot of floodgates for requests. After all, why shouldn't IS get 12 ton Gauss that does 15 PPFLD damage?

Because asymmetrical balance. Clan tech weighs less but generally has disadvantages like burst fire, ripple fire, splash damage, longer beam duration, etc...

The question you should be asking is why the C gauss has no disadvantage or why the IS gauss doesnt get some meaningful advantage over the clan gauss for being 3 tons heavier.

Or why the light gauss is so much worse than the clan gauss despite the fact they both weigh 12 tons.

Seems like the clan gauss should be a candidate for splash damage like the CERPPC was. Either that or come up with an entirely new mechanic to lower damage on gauss (like lower base damage but give it a percentage chance for armor penetration)

Edited by Khobai, 04 July 2017 - 08:27 PM.

[LordNothing]

ah the holy trinity of recoil effects, ghost spread, and energy draw (though i always thought ghost duration was a better idea). i called this 3 bar back when we were talking about the impending doom that energy draw was about to rain down upon us all. it would be a very intuitive set of mechanics to keep things interesting. but i have my doubts that it would actually make the game more fun. if anything its a new pile of gotchas to trip over.

an alternate idea is dynamic quirks, which are based on available hardpoints and how they are used. like if you have 8 laser hardpoints but only use 6 of them you might get a small heat/cooldown/duration buff over a build that uses all 8. in this case boating has diminishing returns.

each variant would have a bonus pool proportional to the number of hardpoints. this is diminished as you fill up free hardpoints. whatever is left after you have armed your varient gets divided up to buffs relevant to the loadout. using every hardpoint would mean that the bonus pool is completely zeroed out an you get no quirks at all.

[slide]

This game doesn't need ghost heat or energy draw or any other contrived idea to reduce the PPFLD alpha meta that favors winning.

The solution has been in table top since the beginning. Put in a proper heat scale that brings in penalties for running your mech hot. Slows your speed, make the reticule wobble, makes ammo explode, makes it harder to twist, limits jump jets etc.

I fail to see why PGI can't or won't do this. Most of the mechanics needed are already in the game.

Alpha strikes should be a last resort option that basically makes your mech explode. Not the go to choice on how the game has to be played.

[Snowbluff]

El Bandito, on 04 July 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

I want the penalty to be switched to Forced Chainfire,

That sounds awful. So everyone will fire there weapons one by one? So literally no one can alpha, or even fire two weapons at once.

Also there is no way around energy draw, except by not shooting all at once. You CAN alpha, but it's actually generated a penalty proportional to the effect, which ghost heat fails to to (*glares at 6 ML 2 LPL*)

[El Bandito]

Snowbluff, on 04 July 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

That sounds awful. So everyone will fire there weapons one by one? So literally no one can alpha, or even fire two weapons at once.

Also there is no way around energy draw, except by not shooting all at once. You CAN alpha, but it's actually generated a penalty proportional to the effect, which ghost heat fails to to (*glares at 6 ML 2 LPL*)

Forced Chainfire only activates if the alpha exceeds certain numbers--and those numbers can be tweaked by individual weapon basis. GH penalty doesn't prevent anything, since you CAN fire them all at once, AND it doesn't address the almost heatless Gauss issue. Forced Chainfire has no such loopholes.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 July 2017 - 10:09 PM.

[Snowbluff]

El Bandito, on 04 July 2017 - 10:09 PM, said:

Forced Chainfire only activates if the alpha exceeds certain numbers--and those numbers can be tweaked by individual weapon basis. GH penalty doesn't prevent anything, since you CAN fire them all at once, AND it doesn't address the almost heatless Gauss issue. Forced Chainfire has no such loopholes.

Literally Energy Draw.

[El Bandito]

Snowbluff, on 04 July 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

Literally Energy Draw.

That's what I said in my first post. I want the energy draw system, but with the GH penalty replaced with Forced Chain Fire, and weapon's energy value determined not by damage number alone. It is how it should have been in the first place, not the GH v.2 PGI had pathetically attempted, and abandoned.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 July 2017 - 10:25 PM.

[Snowbluff]

El Bandito, on 04 July 2017 - 10:15 PM, said:

That's what I said in my first post. I want the energy draw system, but with the GH penalty replaced with Forced Chain Fire, and weapon's energy value determined not by damage number alone. It is how it should have been in the first place, not the GH v.2 PGI had pathetically attempted, and abandoned.

Well except ED didn't determine draw by damage alone (IIRC spread weapons had there value reduced, this would be trivially easy to alter), and I fail to see in any way how not giving people the option to eat the heat makes the system better.