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Game Mechanics: Heat, Targeting, Movement....


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#1 Nesutizale

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 05:01 AM

Currently we have ghostheat to prevent alphas by heating your mech up. So we have a heatspike thats kinda hard to track and with the new weapon systems comming in, it gets even harder.

Also the PTS shows that some systems don't get influenced my the ghostheat at all, it seams, while others are skyrocking for no reason. Could be bugs but I think we might have reached a limit to what ghostheat can do and have to look for other solutions.

Well it got me thinking of how the old TT rules for heat where working.

Battletech never tried to prevent alphas but made you live with the consequences firing an alpha.
These consequenzes where:
- less movement speed
- makeing it harder to hit targets
- early shutdown risk
- ammo explosion

How could we translate this into MWO?


- less movement speed
Overall reduction in mobility. Less movement speed AND less twisting speed the hotter you go.

Effects on different gamestyles
Brawling: Either you risk going slower or fire less frequently
Alpha: You can alpha but you risk becomming an Urbie with its 60 engine
Scouts: Either be more carefull or run cooler weapons. On the other hand heavier mechs will also have more diffuculties to follow your movement as they heat up.
Jumpsniping: Problematic because of the mechanic of there beeing a sweet spot where the screenshake stops. That shouldn't happen OR your get a flat damage reduction while Jumping.


- making it harder to hit targets
"Harder to hit" is currently represented by giveing weapons a falloff in damage.
With the change to the HPPC on the PTS, giveing it a reverse falloff instead of a no-damage-zone, I would say we take over that mechanic here too.

The hotter you get the less damage you do.
I would go this unlogical route because people are constanly try to murder you when you dare to translate "harder to hit" with "I take away your pinpoint accuracy"
Also falloff in damage is a proven mechanic that is working. People keep their pinpoint accuracy but would be faced with the consequenz that their next alpha might not do as much damage.

Brawlers won't have that much trouble here as they should have a playstyle that is keeping their overall heat down anyway.


- Early shutdowns
This was originaly a dicerole...and I don't like to role a dice here but its a very importend part of the heatscale.

So how to turn this from a random thing into a skill based one?
My idea would be that when the "shutdown" alarm sounds you have a certain timewindow to hit the override button.

As there are 4 times on the original heatscale, where you could shut down, I would say the timewindows are (would need testing of timing as its quite easy to reach the override button):

1) 4Sec
2) 3sec
3) 2sec
4) 1sec
5) SHUTDOWN and you don't have a saying in it. The mech will shutdown at max heat.

So when you are alphaing and calculate your heat to be 90% of the heatscale you should allready be hovering over the override button to prevent a shutdown.
Again I won't prevent an alpha, just make it risky.


- Ammo explosion
Again a role of the dice mechanic and for this I don't have any idea how to turn it into a skill thing.
One could make it so that you automaticly cook some of your ammo at high heats, loosing a shot or two in the process but thats to punishing I think. Also it dosn't gives you any means of preventing the loos...except that you never go that high in heat in the first place.
From all the mechanics I would say this is one to skip.


- When does what happen?
The old TT heatscale would have to be adepted to work with the larger heatscale of MWO.
Here is an image for those who don't know the TT heatscale Posted Image
Currently when we pilot mechs we are around 25-29 heat on this scale. Now take a look what would happen.

Lets say you just hit 26 heat/~87% heat. That would result in you haveing 1sec to hit "override", everything except a light beeing an Urbie with a 60 engine, you twist very slowly and your shoots do very little damage...untill you cool down.

Overall it should take out some of the speed of the game as you have to be more aware of your heat. TTK should rise a bit and alphas, while not prevented, would now come with a risk of beeing an easy target as they don't just move into cover or twist away.

I think this system would be better then ghostheat as it isn't bound to specific weapons or weapongroups. You can mix weapons as you like without a strange value that is hard to determin.

#2 Tyroki

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 05:29 AM

There is, of course, also making your core explode due to intense gain of heat.

#3 Nesutizale

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 05:34 AM

Never liked that mechanic as it currently is ingame. Beeing easy to hit is bad enough.

#4 NiuqOteen

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 01:15 PM

In general the heatscale and heat management in the game is far too forgiving.
Over ride should be more punishing.

Less alpha more dps focused is something i would love to see.

If your internals are fresh, willing to pop a coolshot and over ride you can temporarily ignore a balancing mechanic win your 1v1 and power down manually to not explode.

#5 pyrocomp

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 01:40 PM

All this won't help a bit. I do not know any non-joke build that goes above 50% on a single alpha. Thus even halving the current 'Mech heat capacity will only force players to fire no more than 1 or 2 alphas before going in cove to chill. Not current 3 to 4. Alphas stem not exactly from heat alone, More from convergence and range.

#6 davoodoo

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 01:56 PM

View PostNiuqOteen, on 02 July 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

In general the heatscale and heat management in the game is far too forgiving.

Excuse me?? what!!??

this extremely hot mech
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...29e0bbeb10eae97
would be heat neutral in tt...infact its too cool generating no heat even when fired at by flamer.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f46991f363b1229
this is 96 dmg heat neutral alpha, this mech can generate any heat only by moving or being hit my heat inducing weapons or having engine critted.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellstar
read...
"The real key to the design's reputation is its unprecedented thirty Double Heat Sinks, which allow it to fire all its weapons continuously without the risk of heat build-up."
0 heat from firing, 4 cerppc 60 dmg at extremely long range.

I wonder why nova prime exists, it cant fire all its lasers in mwo without shutting down and yet energy management is too forgiving.

Overheating with ballistics should be outright impossible if you have dhs, Maybe if you did something silly like 4 uac20.

mwo dhs work at 1/3rd their tt efficiency, its worst out of entire mechwarrior series in terms of heat management, you have no idea what youre talking about...

Edited by davoodoo, 02 July 2017 - 02:18 PM.


#7 zeves

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 05:27 PM

REALLY talking about changeing heat ? like we havent talked about this for 5 years or more, Russ wont change this, its just one of many ******** things that are different in Russwarrior online.
the closest we ever were was the power draw system but for some reason no one liked that.

#8 davoodoo

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 05:31 PM

View Postzeves, on 02 July 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

the closest we ever were was the power draw system but for some reason no one liked that.

It was antithesis of battletech heat system...

#9 Reno Blade

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 08:19 AM

First, TT heat scale does not penalize you for boating, e.g. 2x AC20 is quite low on heat.
GH penalty for dual AC20 is very high to prevent you from firing them together more than 4 times.

We can use the TT scale effects such as movement, turn and twist speeds.
And also twist and arm speed.

losing cXL side torso currently already give you speed and agility penalties, so these could work, but having the penalty tied to the loss of XL engine slots is different than having it tied to heat values (code wise).

Still we would need the exponential penalty of GH for anti-boating weapons such as dual AC20.
And then we would still not solve anything like dual Gauss that does only 2 heat total.

#10 davoodoo

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 08:42 AM

Gauss is problem invented by pgi and their nerfing of dhs

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...87459581f7d8655
this is 60 dmg worth of heat neutral gauss.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b4fd04dee5dbf78
this is 60 dmg worth of heat neutral erppc. with higher range, no minimal range and no risk of explosion...

Edited by davoodoo, 05 July 2017 - 08:43 AM.


#11 ShadeofHades

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 09:16 AM

View Postdavoodoo, on 02 July 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

Excuse me?? what!!??

this extremely hot mech
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...29e0bbeb10eae97
would be heat neutral in tt...infact its too cool generating no heat even when fired at by flamer.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f46991f363b1229
this is 96 dmg heat neutral alpha, this mech can generate any heat only by moving or being hit my heat inducing weapons or having engine critted.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellstar
read...
"The real key to the design's reputation is its unprecedented thirty Double Heat Sinks, which allow it to fire all its weapons continuously without the risk of heat build-up."
0 heat from firing, 4 cerppc 60 dmg at extremely long range.

I wonder why nova prime exists, it cant fire all its lasers in mwo without shutting down and yet energy management is too forgiving.

Overheating with ballistics should be outright impossible if you have dhs, Maybe if you did something silly like 4 uac20.

mwo dhs work at 1/3rd their tt efficiency, its worst out of entire mechwarrior series in terms of heat management, you have no idea what youre talking about...


Have you tried firing those weapons no more than once every ten seconds, like the TT pilots have to? I think you might find the designs much closer to heat-neutral. What you are complaining about is actually either A. having worse trigger discipline than TT pilots do or B. having weapons recycle much sooner than TT allows.

(Edited for emoji sabotage of formatting)

Edited by ShadeofHades, 05 July 2017 - 09:17 AM.


#12 davoodoo

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 09:29 AM

View PostShadeofHades, on 05 July 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:


Have you tried firing those weapons no more than once every ten seconds, like the TT pilots have to? I think you might find the designs much closer to heat-neutral. What you are complaining about is actually either A. having worse trigger discipline than TT pilots do or B. having weapons recycle much sooner than TT allows.

(Edited for emoji sabotage of formatting)

I might fire them once every 10seconds. Still they have 75% heat capacity and 75% dissipation. Even without ghost heat nova wouldnt be able to fire alpha without overheating(though funnily old videos of stalker with 6 ppc would put heat at 28/30 or 93% while ingame it only produced 63%)

Then they if we were supposed to fire once every 10s then -drumroll- cds would be 10s.





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