121 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

That is not at all the same thing. heavier IS weapons get more damage than lighter IS weapons. sure

But IS weapons dont get more damage than Clan weapons just for being heavier.

LPPC = 5 damage
PPC = 10 damage
HPPC = can you guess

Oh look! IS only weapons. Now what were you saying?

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 05 July 2017 - 03:56 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

LPPC = 5 damage
PPC = 10 damage
HPPC = can you guess

I can guess. 13/1/1 damage.

Its not 15 for a reason.

Quote

ERPPC vs HPPC
6tons vs 10tons (That's is a 66% increase in weight HPPC)
2slots vs 6slots (that's a 100% increase in bulk for the HPPC)
14 vs 15 heat
810 vs 540 range (that's a 50% better range for the ERPPC)
zero minimum range vs drop off from 90

At 13/1/1 its already doing 30% more pinpoint damage than a CERPPC. Plus it fires faster than a CERPPC. The damage is perfectly fine where it is, its already considerably higher damage output than the CERPPC.

And ive said the heat should be much lower because it doesnt have nearly the range of the CERPPC. 12.5 heat would be fine. 14.5 or whatever its at now is definitely too high.

Edited by Khobai, 05 July 2017 - 04:10 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 03:59 PM, said:

I can guess. 13/1/1 damage.

Sorry! Using your own logic, because no IS energy weapon has a splash effect, it would be 15.

Thanks for playing!

[Kaptain]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

whats next youre gonna be asking for the IS gauss to do 20 damage?

HPPC 15@15 is actually an even more reasonable request vs your strawman guass rifle.

33% damage for %25 weight and a single slot. I doubt anyone has ever asked for that, or would. It's a straw man, and you know it. I suppose when you can't win an argument with facts there are always logical fallacies to turn to eh?

Now compare that straw man to the 15@15_HPPC vs C-ERPPC. %66 increase in weight and %100 increase in bulk, %50 reduction in range(with a min) slower travel time, and a heat increase all to get %50 more pinpoint HPPCs.
You actually strengthen the 15@15 argument with that comment.

Edited by Kaptain, 05 July 2017 - 04:17 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

There are only 13 days left before the patch. Enough time to make the changes but not enough time to make changes, retest and make more changes. You are never going to satisfy everyone or give everyone everything they want. We got to test, then they made a bunch of substantial changes that most agree were in the right direction. Then we got to test again and provide additional feedback and now they are going to use that feedback and the data they have gathered to make additional changes before release. That is exactly what everyone wanted from a PTS but there have to be limits to what they can change, what they are willing to change and how many times they can make changes while still producing a successful patch on schedule.

I am happy that our feedback was taken under consideration and I look forward to the results.

[Bud Crue]

Monkey Lover, on 05 July 2017 - 03:41 PM, said:

We have no idea , they're going to change values and release it into the live without testing.

Thats not even counting game breaking bugs(for some people) they always have because they dont test the final builds.

Meh.

There is nothing in the new tech that felt remotely "OP" or game breaking. If they change some values to render some element to be so, I don't believe that they will let it last very long (unless it helps sell a new mech ). Seriously, I think this PTS was, by comparative standards, a smashing success for PGI. Most of the new tech is mere novelty (RACs), interesting (PPC and Heavy laser lines), or a long time in coming (LFE) and I can't see any of the changes that they stated or implied in the announcement changing any of that very dramatically. Civil war tech, this PTS, and our introduction to it has been well done. It feels weird, I know. But it's true.

[Accused]

PTS is only for PGI to collect numbers. When you understand this, everything makes more sense about how they do balancing.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 03:59 PM, said:

I can guess. 13/1/1 damage.

Its not 15 for a reason.

Oh it should definitely be 15, being a medium ranged weapon that weights 10 tons, takes up 4 slots, and 14.5 heat. 13/1/1 is what I would call minimally viable.

ATMs are probably higher on the power curve than 13/1/1 heavy PPCs.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 05 July 2017 - 04:14 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Here's what happens. They release on live. There's a few bugs. They hotfix eventually. And if there's something that doesn't feel right from a balance perspective. We complain loudly about it and they look into it. And changes continue on live as they always should have. Instead of everyone becoming cozy and complacent with the status quo of things. Acting drama queens when something does change.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

there is no good reason why it should do 15 PPFLD.

the CERPPC doesnt get 15 PPFLD. so why should the IS HPPC? you think just because it weighs a couple tons more it should do 5 more PPFLD. yeah no thats not how it works.

whats next youre gonna be asking for the IS gauss to do 20 damage? or for IS SRMs to do 4 damage per missile?

dude... put the pipe down

How is an extra 3 tons and an extra slot worth just 3 damage (don't really care about the 1 damage to adjacent components)? Taking 2 HPPCs is a significant increase in investment... and they are HOT so you need DHS. You are starting to sound like a Clan loyalist biased player tbh.

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

like I said it should be 12.5 heat instead of 14.5 but it should definitely not be 15 PPFLD.

also consider clans only get one option for PPCs. Clans dont get 5 different options for PPCs like IS does.

so the one and only option clans get needs to be better overall because its the only choice they have.

but if the HPPC does 15 damage and fires faster, then it makes the CERPPC look terrible by comparison. Id gladly trade 4 extra tons and some max range for 15 PPFLD instead of 10/2.5/2.5. Most of the time the CERPPC doesnt even need all the extra range it has.

Yeah but most Clan mechs can't afford that tonnage investment. It really means you need to come up with 8 extra tons because these things typically come in pairs. The cERPPC does NOT look terrible because its 4 tons lighter and takes up half the space, and does more point blank damage AND has longer range. There is a lot of upside there. And no, just because there are more options doesn't mean the cERPPC should be the best, that is the worst logic I have ever seen. How about balanced?

[Khobai]

Quote

How is an extra 3 tons and an extra slot worth just 3 damage

its not just 3 damage. its +3 damage, +2 splash damage, and removal of the 90m damage deadzone. IS also get some pretty decent PPC quirks on certain mechs which clans dont get.

and if according to you splash damage isnt worth anything then it means the CERPPC is also in need of a huge buff. yet you arnt willing to buff the CERPPC for the same reason you claim the HPPC needs buffs.

and like I said clans dont get 5 choices for PPCs. they only get 1 choice. so that 1 choice needs to be really really good compared to the 5 choices that IS gets. So it makes no sense why the HPPC should be better than the CERPPC, and it would be better at 15 PPFLD, because what clan player wouldnt pay 4 extra tons and some max range for an increase from 10 to 15 PPFLD if they had the option. Thats straight up better.

Edited by Khobai, 05 July 2017 - 04:41 PM.

[Cybrid 0x0t2md2w]

the heavy ppc serves no purpose without it's actual 15 damage(should be 15 with 2.5 spread 2x but meh). that's why the light ppc + ppc/snub/erppc make it useless. hell all the ppcs should have the damage spread on top of full for added ppc effect(less for light ppc of course).

personally I'd rather have all the new weapons more powerful and fun before canning them to this level of "but is it worth it? no go use old tech + lfe".

where's the fun if it's all overbalanced and feels meh and not worth it?

[MadRover]

wow i thought the drama was bad in the pts section for this. its worse in the topic than any other post made i think.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

its not just 3 damage. its +3 damage, +2 splash damage, and removal of the 90m damage deadzone.

and if according to you splash damage isnt worth anything then it means the CERPPC is also in need of a huge buff. yet you arnt willing to buff the CERPPC for the same reason you claim the HPPC needs buffs.

and like I said clans dont get 5 choices for PPCs. they only get 1 choice. so that 1 choice needs to be really really good compared to the 5 choices that IS gets. So it makes no sense why the HPPC should be better than the CERPPC, and it would be better at 15 PPFLD, because what clan player wouldnt pay 4 extra tons and some max range for an increase from 10 to 15 PPFLD. Thats straight up better.

WHY would the cERPPC need a buff when it out performs the IS ER PPC that is a ton heavier and takes up another slot!?!?!?!? Dude.... where is your logic.

The deadzone was replaced with exponential fall off... so point blank its still useless.

The HPPC SHOULD be a better weapon because its bigger and heavier. Man, your logic could be used to say oh hey a medium laser shouldn't be worse than a LPL just because its 6 tons lighter. Absolutely ridiculous. So you think a Clan player would trade 4 DHS and a cERPPC for a HPPC? Is that what you are saying? That's a pretty bad idea.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 05 July 2017 - 04:44 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

WHY would the cERPPC need a buff when it out performs the IS ER PPC that is a ton heavier and takes up another slot!?!?!?!? Dude.... where is your logic.

because its the only PPC clans get. They dont get 5 different PPCs.

less weapon variety means clan weapons need to do more than their IS counterparts

wanna give clans 5 different ppcs? id be fine with that too. but until it happens the CERPPC needs to be absolutely amazing compared to all the IS PPCs.

Quote

The HPPC SHOULD be a better weapon because its bigger and heavier.

All I said was it shouldnt do 15 PPFLD.

Im fine with it being better in other ways like lowering its heat to 12.5

And no it shouldnt be a more damaging weapon just because its heavier. IS gauss doesnt do more damage than clan gauss despite being heavier for example. not sure why you think the HPPC needs to do so much more damage than the CERPPC, it already does 30% more PPFLD as well as fires faster, that is more than enough damage. Its already the most damaging PPC in the game by a huge margin.

Quote

So you think a Clan player would trade 4 DHS and a cERPPC for a HPPC?

wouldnt be trading any DHS. just 4 tons. clan mechs have plenty of tonnage to fill up on DHS and still have tonnage leftover.

but yes thats a trade I would gladly make if I could. 15 PPFLD instead of 10 PPFLD for only 4 tons and less max range. but sadly clans dont get that option.

clans only get one option for PPCs. and that option needs to outperform every IS option because its the only option clans get. the only way out of that problem is to give clans the same weapon variation as IS.

Edited by Khobai, 05 July 2017 - 05:06 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

because its the only PPC clans get. They dont get 5 different PPCs.

less weapon variety means clan weapons need to do more than their IS counterparts

Uh no that's not what it means at all, but hey pass me that pipe you are smoking.

[Scout Derek]

MadRover, on 05 July 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

wow i thought the drama was bad in the pts section for this. its worse in the topic than any other post made i think.

sad thing is all I wanted to do was to warn people in case they wanted to play on the PTS some more...

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

because its the only PPC clans get. They dont get 5 different PPCs.

less weapon variety means clan weapons need to do more than their IS counterparts

So...1 useful gun against 5 guns, none of which can do even one thing as comparably well as that single Clan gun?

K.

Just like Clan lasers should always win the trade, right?

[Mister Blastman]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

So why should HPPC get more damage than CERPPC for being heavier? makes no sense.

HPPC = 10 tons, 13 damage pp, 14.5 heat, 4 crits, 540 optimal range, 1080 max, minimum range penalty
ERPPC = 6 tons, 10 damage pp, 14 heat, 2 crits, 810 optimal range, 1620 max, NO minimum range penalty

Umm. Right. They absolutely should be worse for more tons! YEP! I TOTALLY SEE IT! THANK YOU FOR POINTING IT OUT!

Positively righteous reason to load up on the HPPC. Hell, I'm going to shim as many on 'mech as I can! Yeah!



I could be rude right now, but you just don't see it, and no amount of logic or reason or making sense will help you see why the heavy PPC is a junk pile unless it is 15 pts PPFLD.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 05 July 2017 - 05:08 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 05 July 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

I could be rude right now, but you just don't see it, and no amount of logic or reason or making sense will help you see why the heavy PPC is a junk pile unless it is 15 pts PPFLD.

Please be rude. I want to bask in it.