121 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

hopefully it reopens at least once before official release, but it will be what it will be.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 July 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

hopefully it reopens at least once before official release, but it will be what it will be.

It probably won't based on wording.

I spent like an hour expressing disdain over poor LBX copypasta on the PTS. I'm sure it reads as TL;DR regardless.

[Khobai]

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Umm. Right. They absolutely should be worse for more tons! YEP! I TOTALLY SEE IT! THANK YOU FOR POINTING IT OUT!

its not worse though. it does 13 PPFLD which is 30% better than the 10 PPFLD that the CERPPC does. It also fires 13% faster than the CERPPC.

Its already substantially more damaging than a CERPPC. It doesnt need to do even more damage.

If its heat was lowered to 12.5 it would be perfectly fine. Thats all it needs.

It would be a very heat efficient PPC then at 13/1/1 for 12.5 heat, thats a very decent heat to damage conversion.

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I could be rude right now, but you just don't see it, and no amount of logic or reason or making sense will help you see why the heavy PPC is a junk pile unless it is 15 pts PPFLD.

Because there is no logic or reason behind it doing 15 PPFLD.

Its exactly like saying the IS gauss should do 20 damage because its 3 tons heavier than the clan gauss. Yet that would just result in a completely overpowered IS gauss. Theres a point where adding more damage is simply not the ideal or most balanced way to fix a weapon. PGI obviously realizes that which is why they tried to fix the HPPC without upping the damage to 15.

Edited by Khobai, 05 July 2017 - 05:23 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

Because there is no logic or reason behind it doing 15 PPFLD.

Its exactly like saying the IS gauss should do 20 damage because its 3 tons heavier than the clan gauss. Yet that would just result in a completely overpowered IS gauss. Theres a point where adding more damage is simply not the ideal or most balanced way to fix a weapon.

Its not like that at all, since IS Gauss is functionally identical to Clan Gauss. It doesn't have the "less damage under 90m" issue, or more heat, or less range. There are significant tradeoffs here. That range is a big deal in 8-900m engagements. Not only does it have to overcome those tradeoffs, its also twice as large and 4 tons heavier. So yeah, it should be a clearly better option. Right now, it really isn't.

[Mister Blastman]

Like I said, nothing I say will convince you. There's no point in arguing. The weapon is trash.

15 PPFLD or bust.

For that kinda mothereffin tonnage and crits, (which likely means giving up two double heatsinks due to it being a four crit weapon), it sho' as hell betta' do 15 slappin' damage or gtf outta da room! Tainted, riddled cracktrash, ain't no good, no way, no how, it's bad to tha' core.

Terrible weapon is terrible.

Gauss is 15 damage ppfld, and doesn't require supporting heatsinks to sustain fire. Sorry, but your argument is invalid. It needs the damage.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 05 July 2017 - 05:33 PM.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

its not worse though. it does 13 PPFLD which is 30% better than the 10 PPFLD that the CERPPC does. It also fires 13% faster than the CERPPC.

Its already substantially more damaging than a CERPPC. It doesnt need to do even more damage.

If its heat was lowered to 12.5 it would be perfectly fine. Thats all it needs.

It would be a very heat efficient PPC then at 13/1/1 for 12.5 heat, thats a very decent heat to damage conversion.



Because there is no logic or reason behind it doing 15 PPFLD.

Its exactly like saying the IS gauss should do 20 damage because its 3 tons heavier than the clan gauss. Yet that would just result in a completely overpowered IS gauss. Theres a point where adding more damage is simply not the ideal or most balanced way to fix a weapon. PGI obviously realizes that which is why they tried to fix the HPPC without upping the damage to 15.

If you missed the tonnage commitment on the Heavy PPC to do "so little benefit", then obviously you forget how convenient an CERPPC can fit on the CT of some Clan mechs.

If you want to continue to ignore the obvious, you can feel free to be ignored and be considered the blood brother of some clanner that cries Wolf.

[Kaptain]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

because its the only PPC clans get. They dont get 5 different PPCs.

less weapon variety means clan weapons need to do more than their IS counterparts

LMAO, no. Just no. This is neither reasonable nor logical. Balance > Your emotional stance.

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

And no it shouldnt be a more damaging weapon just because its heavier.

In the case of the HPPC it would get more damage because its Hotter, Heavier, Bulkier, Shorter ranged, slower AND has a minimum range drop off. Not "just" for being heavier as you claim.

You are clearly not trying to understand the side of your opposition in this discussion just trying to shut it down. Well, its transparent.

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

IS gauss doesnt do more damage than clan gauss despite being heavier for example. not sure why you think the HPPC needs to do so much more damage than the CERPPC, it already does 30% more PPFLD as well as fires faster, that is more than enough damage. Its already the most damaging PPC in the game by a huge margin.

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

whats next youre gonna be asking for the IS gauss to do 20 damage?

Again this is a Strawman.
HPPC 15@15 is actually a much more reasonable request vs your strawman guass rifle.

C-GR vs IS-GR: 33% more damage for %25 weight and a single slot? I doubt anyone has ever asked for that, or would. It's a straw man, and you know it. I suppose when you can't win an argument with facts there are always logical fallacies to turn to eh?

Now compare that straw man to the 15@15_HPPC vs C-ERPPC. %66 increase in weight and %100 increase in bulk, %50 reduction in range(with a min) slower travel time, and a heat increase all to get %50 more pinpoint HPPCs.

You actually strengthen the 15@15 argument with that comment.

Edited by Kaptain, 05 July 2017 - 05:59 PM.

[Kaptain]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 July 2017 - 04:28 PM, said:

You are starting to sound like a Clan loyalist biased player tbh.

This. So much this. Deliberately misrepresenting the oppositions side and using straw man tactics to boot.

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

Because there is no logic or reason behind it doing 15 PPFLD.

Actually there are several:

Kaptain, on 05 July 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

Since you can't think of any reason ill give you several.

ERPPC vs HPPC
6tons vs 10tons (That's is a 66% increase in weight HPPC)
2slots vs 6slots (that's a 100% increase in bulk for the HPPC)
14 vs 15 heat
810 vs 540 range (that's a 50% better range for the ERPPC)
zero minimum range vs drop off from 90
1300 vs 1200 travel speed

Even with 15@15 the HPPC is worse in every way except PPD. Hell, it wouldn't even be doing more damage just more PPD. That would be its only advantage. Right now for ALL its trade offs, and there are several NOT "just" weight, it does a small lasers worth more of PPFL damage. Not more damage mind you, just more PPFL. How much? A small lasers worth.

MUCH heavier
MUCH larger
MUCH shorter range
Slower travel time
More heat
An actual minimum range
Larger IS heat sinks (read much harder to boat)
Bulkier ES (a big concern when trying to boat LARGE, HOT, HEAVY ppcs.

Edited by Kaptain, 05 July 2017 - 06:02 PM.

[Khobai]

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Now compare that straw man to the 15@15_HPPC vs C-ERPPC. %66 increase in weight and %100 increase in bulk, %50 reduction in range(with a min) slower travel time, and a heat increase all to get %50 more pinpoint HPPCs.
You actually strengthen the 15@15 argument with that comment.

Okay so lets compare to another baseline like PPCs

at 15 PPFLD and 15 heat, 2 HPPCs would completely outperform 3 PPCs.

HPPC would do 15x2 damage for 30 heat with no min range for 20 tons, 8 crits, and 2 hardpoints. no ghost heat.

while 3 PPCs would do 10x3 damage for 28.5 heat with a min range for 21 tons, 9 crits, and 3 hardpoints. And suffer ghost heat if fired all at once.

so unless you want the HPPC to completely outperform regular PPCs then 15/15 is not gonna work. which is what ive been saying all along. its not a good balancing point for the weapon.

Ideally 2 HPPC should be equal to 3 PPC. Thats where your perfect balancing point is. HPPCs are pretty close to that right now if you lower their heat.

Quote

This. So much this. Deliberately misrepresenting the oppositions side and using straw man tactics to boot.

Do you even know what a strawman argument is? Its when you try to win an argument by making a completely unrelated argument.

Yet the fact that IS gauss weighs more than clan gauss is entirely relevant to the discussion of HPPCs. Because heavier weapons do not always outdamage lighter weapons. And the only real basis of the argument for why HPPC should do more damage than a CERPPC is because its heavier.

There is no strawman argument there. Its just me pointing out that that not every IS weapon needs to do more damage than its clan counterpart because it weighs more.

Edited by Khobai, 05 July 2017 - 06:06 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 05:55 PM, said:

while 3 PPCs would do 10x3 damage for 28.5 heat with a min range for 21 tons, 9 crits, and 3 hardpoints. And suffer ghost heat if fired all at once.

You are right, time to up the PPC GH limit so you can fire 3 without ghost heat.

[Khobai]

Quote

You are right, time to up the PPC GH limit so you can fire 3 without ghost heat.

the HPPC would still be way better because no min range. that is a huge advantage.

youd have to also give HPPC back their min range. And probably increase their heat from 15 to 16 because they only use 2 hardpoints instead of 3 hardpoints. That hardpoint compression has to be worth something.

Thats why clan heavy lasers run so hot because its like jamming 2 lasers into 1 hardpoint so they cost extra heat to make up for that.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 05 July 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

I am a bit disappointed there isn't going to be be another PTS session with the changes they are changing. Instead we just get "Hey we are closing test servers and oh by the way, there are going to be a million and one changes happening based on your feedback but we are not going to let you test these changes before going live". Seriously isn't that what test is for so we can give feedback BEFORE it goes live? I mean seems pretty obvious to me the final round of changes needs to actually be tested on the PTS prior to going live so they can get a few tweak in here or there.

PGI is keeping to their schedule on new tech release. Can't have 3-4 iterations and months of waiting like the new skill tree. The rest can be patched in the live server.

Just pray that PGI had fixed the RL exploit in CW.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 July 2017 - 06:14 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

the HPPC would still be way better because no min range. that is a huge advantage.

youd have to also give HPPC back their min range. And probably increase their heat from 15 to 16 because they only use 2 hardpoints instead of 3 hardpoints. That hardpoint compression has to be worth something.

Thats why clan heavy lasers run so hot because its like jamming 2 lasers into 1 hardpoint so they cost extra heat to make up for that.

The HPPC has a minimum range: it's 90 meters. That's when damage starts going down.

More pragmatically, under 45, you are doing next to nothing and are a dead 'Mech unless that enemy was already <10 points or so from death and has no meaningful firepower of his own. Yay exponential functions!

Want to know what the minimum range on the ER PPC is?

As for hardpoint compression, the standard PPC heat needs to come down, not the other way around. Nothing without heat gen quirks uses the PPC, and even those 'Mechs don't seem to be all that popular, especially at the high end of play.

[Kaptain]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 05:55 PM, said:

Do you even know what a strawman argument is? Its when you try to win an argument by making a completely unrelated argument.

It doesn't have to be an unrelated argument just an easily defeated one. "Set the straw man on fire". And that is exactly what you are doing.

The GR analogy is an obvious straw man. You brought it up just so you could shut it down and thus hopefully make your opposition look stupid. No one is asking to spend 25% more weight for a %33 damage increase(your GR strawman). We are not even asking for a damage increase, just a shift from splash to PP. And for that we are willing to pay 66% more weight, 50% more bulk, take a %50 reduction to range, a hit to heat, a small hit to travel time and live with a minimum range fall off. All so we can have more FLPP. Not more damage overall, just a shift in damage from spash to PP.

Compare that to you straw-man guass rifle analogy where the damage increase is not just a shift but an outright increase. And the flat out increase in damage(33%) in your strawman outweighs the 25% increase in weight. And in this strawman analogy the only other trade off is a small % increase to bulk. The IS-GR isn't slower, or hotter, or shorter ranged nor does it travel slower or have a minimum range vs its IS counterpart.


Just admit you like clans like alot, you're super Jealous of IS PPCs, and you want clan to remain superior no matter the slots, tons, range, heat or minimum range. Oh wait, you already did when you said Clan needs to be better because they have less options, full stop.

Edited by Kaptain, 05 July 2017 - 06:33 PM.

[Kaptain]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

the HPPC would still be way better because no min range. that is a huge advantage.

Seriously? You just ignore anything your opposition says don't you? If I were under the impression the HPPC doesn't have a minimum range and my opposition brought up minimum range, as one of many drawbacks, several times in a single thread, that would give me reason to pause.

You not realizing it has a minimum range exponential fall off adds strength to my claim you are not arguing from the values of the weapon systems but from an emotional position of "unfairness".

[MadRover]

Scout Derek, on 05 July 2017 - 04:56 PM, said:

sad thing is all I wanted to do was to warn people in case they wanted to play on the PTS some more...

people never learn

[Khobai]

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You not realizing it has a minimum range exponential fall off adds strength to my claim you are not arguing from the values of the weapon systems but from an emotional position of "unfairness".

of course I realize that. by minimum range im specifically referring to the 90m deadzone where you do 0 damage.

linear damage fall off is not even close to the same thing as a minimum range deadzone especially on a 15 damage weapon

it means that the HPPC can do some pretty decent damage under 90m. where the normal PPCs just does 0 damage. It gives x2 HPPC a substantial edge over x3 PPC.

if you make the HPPC do 15 PPFLD, the linear dropoff needs to go back to being a 90m deadzone.

Quote

The GR analogy is an obvious straw man

nope. its not a strawman argument. it is simply a relevant connected argument.

the reality is it was a good argument, and you couldnt defend against it, and had to accuse it of being a strawman argument to try and discredit it.

because the very fact that IS gauss is 3 tons heavier than clan gauss, yet doesnt do anymore damage than clan gauss, weakens the argument that HPPCs should do more damage simply because it weighs more than CERPPC. Not all weapons do more damage because they weigh more.

then of course theres the other argument that splash damage on the HPPC is completely worthless and thats why the HPPC should do 15 PPFLD. but if splash damage is truly worthless then it means the CERPPC is outright worse than the ISERPPC, because it has higher heat and a longer cooldown, but all that splash damage is worthless. So that just turns into a compelling argument to buff the CERPPC.

so i mean theres just some really poor arguments going all around.

really the only good argument made for where the HPPC should sit in terms of stats is that x2 HPPC should equal x3 PPC. That is pretty difficult to argue against. And thats exactly how the HPPC needs to be balanced to not make regular PPCs obsolete.

Edited by Khobai, 05 July 2017 - 06:54 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

linear damage fall off is not even close to the same thing as a minimum range deadzone where you do 0 damage

especially on a 15 damage weapon

It isn't linear. It's exponential.

And it's still a limitation the ERPPC does not have.

[Kaptain]

Khobai, on 05 July 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

linear damage fall off is not even close to the same thing as a minimum range deadzone especially on a 15 damage weapon

Kaptain, on 05 July 2017 - 06:26 PM, said:

Seriously? You just ignore anything your opposition says don't you?

Gonna have to quote myself again here:

Kaptain, on 05 July 2017 - 06:26 PM, said:

You not realizing it has a minimum range exponential fall off adds strength to my claim you are not arguing from the values of the weapon systems but from an emotional position of "unfairness".

Might as well quote Yeonne here again also:

Yeonne Greene, on 05 July 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:

The HPPC has a minimum range: it's 90 meters. That's when damage starts going down.

More pragmatically, under 45, you are doing next to nothing and are a dead 'Mech unless that enemy was already <10 points or so from death and has no meaningful firepower of his own. Yay exponential functions!

Edited by Kaptain, 05 July 2017 - 06:48 PM.

[Khobai]

you are getting way too caught up in irrelevant details. because regardless of whether its linear or exponential dropoff the fact still remains that its better than a 90m deadzone where you do 0 damage

its an advantage the HPPC have that the PPCs dont. so in the x2 HPPCs vs x3 PPCs comparison the HPPCs are better as long as that exists.

If you want 15 PPFLD seems fair to have to give that up and go back to a 0 damage deadzone. that way the higher PPFLD damage of the heavy PPC is offset by the fact you can get inside its 90m deadzone.

and since splash damage has been established as completely worthless the CERPPC could use a nice buff as well. since its just a worse ISERPPC if splash damage has no value.

Edited by Khobai, 05 July 2017 - 07:07 PM.