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Small Laser And Ac10 Are Bad Baseline Weapons


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#1 kapusta11

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 01:56 PM

Baseline weapons should be those that are currently in use not the worst weapons in the game.

Lasers (mediums and larges), Gauss, PPCs, SRMs are all more or less balanced against each other. Picking different baseline means changing every weapon. Can you preserve the fragile state of balance that way? IS small laser was picked as a baseline for all small laser weapon lineup. Now they are all worthless. cSPL is basically dead and IS SPL that never even seen use was nerfed too.


What I'm trying to say, if RACs, Light and Heavy Gauss need to be buffed - buff them, because they can't compete with what we have right now. Let AC10 and Small laser rot, or buff them too, they are the problem after all, not everything else.


And fix your matchmaking system. Pitting bads against veteran players is what primarily creates frustration, not some severe balance issues. I have 1.5 W/L and 2 K/D ratios which is slightly above average yet MM treats me like some 5+ W/L and K/D ratio superstar player because we're both Tier 1 players.

Edited by kapusta11, 05 July 2017 - 02:25 PM.


#2 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 01:58 PM

I mean I would preface that with baseline weapons should be chosen if they fit the desired power curve. With that said, with the iSL chosen as the baseline for all small lasers compared to all the other laser sizes, the entire small laser class outside of cERSL were basically just killed off because the baseline was too low compared to everything else.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 July 2017 - 01:58 PM.


#3 Damnedtroll

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 02:23 PM

Velocity buff for ac10, problem solved.

Small laser was a tool to kill off infantry most of the time... and we don't have any to melt !

#4 Chris Lowrey

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 02:42 PM

I hear this entire notion of small lasers being the baseline and this is patently false. Same with the AC 10. This is something that I have never said, nor would I ever say something to that effect.

The baseline is the aggregate of all the weapons combined over numerous properties and other intended metrics we wish to track and judge against at a global level. It has never, nor will it ever, come down to a single weapon system being compared against others. As that is a fast way to have whatever weapons you establish as the baseline get trapped in a perpetual state of never being reviewed as you are constantly attempting to mold everything else in the game around an artificial goal post that might be flawed in of itself. This is something that is not done now, and something I have no plans of starting anytime soon.

#5 Deathlike

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 02:46 PM

View PostChris Lowrey, on 05 July 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

I hear this entire notion of small lasers being the baseline and this is patently false. Same with the AC 10. This is something that I have never said, nor would I ever say something to that effect.

The baseline is the aggregate of all the weapons combined over numerous properties and other intended metrics we wish to track and judge against at a global level. It has never, nor will it ever, come down to a single weapon system being compared against others. As that is a fast way to have whatever weapons you establish as the baseline get trapped in a perpetual state of never being reviewed as you are constantly attempting to mold everything else in the game around an artificial goal post that might be flawed in of itself. This is something that is not done now, and something I have no plans of starting anytime soon.


The problem is that I see this very issue with LBXes (most of it copy and paste), and obviously it isn't being properly iterated against.

Heck, I don't even know what the LBX baseline is, but it's pretty mediocre except for the small exception in the comp community for LBX20s and the occasional + LBX10 with all the SRMs you can fit on a mech.

Not knowing what the baseline is for anything, leaves for really odd variances in which balance justifications have been made when it has made less sense to begin with (sometimes a weapon system is fine, yet gets nerfed unnecessarily compared to something else that clearly needs buffing/nerfing or adjustments).

#6 Y E O N N E

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 04:22 PM

View PostChris Lowrey, on 05 July 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

I hear this entire notion of small lasers being the baseline and this is patently false. Same with the AC 10. This is something that I have never said, nor would I ever say something to that effect.

The baseline is the aggregate of all the weapons combined over numerous properties and other intended metrics we wish to track and judge against at a global level. It has never, nor will it ever, come down to a single weapon system being compared against others. As that is a fast way to have whatever weapons you establish as the baseline get trapped in a perpetual state of never being reviewed as you are constantly attempting to mold everything else in the game around an artificial goal post that might be flawed in of itself. This is something that is not done now, and something I have no plans of starting anytime soon.


Preface: thank you for engaging with us in this format, Chris. We may sometimes get ahead of ourselves, but we really care about this game it means a lot to get to have open discussions with staff on such topics here. I really think PGI needs to have a discussion with comp-level players on these issues, because that hasn't happened to my knowledge and there's been a long-time simmering desire for it.

Moving on, that's a noble claim, but the fact remains that the AC/10 and LB-X and Small Laser are pretty much never taken for higher level play because they can't do anything well enough to be considered. They lack a usable combination of range, velocity, and/or DPS and get overshadowed by alternatives like AC/20, cGauss, twin AC/5, cERSL, and even standard Medium Lasers. The fact also remains that those weapons have hardly been touched in the three years I've been playing. The LB-10X and AC/10 got an ammo bump, which helped 'Mech construction but didn't help field performance and in fact the velocity and range got nerfed on the AC/10 and all other standard ballistics in that same time period. The Small Laser got multiple range boosts, which did little to solve its chief drawback: lack of damage output even inside its optimum that can't even be mitigated by massing them the way the cERSL can be massed. We've seen multiple passes on PPCs and Gauss and Clan lasers over this same period of time, but the rest of the old IS gear, which was never internally balanced to begin with, has remained mostly stagnant. PGI's recent changes to the Medium Laser were fantastic and long-overdue, but there's more to do.

And now we get the new guns, the most important of which PGI has chosen to preemptively curb to either maintain some sort of flavor against their Clan counterparts or provide less incentive to take what would otherwise be a cut-and-dry superior weapon within the same tech tree. A prime example is the range on the isUAC/10, which PGI cut 90 meters from to make it identical to the AC/10. So not only does that make both have mediocre reach for their weight, it's also out of line with how PGI has done the rest of the ballistics, where the standard AC has longer range than the Ultra. And even then, the attempt to incentivize AC/10 usage will be unsuccessful, because the two weapons are essentially identical save for one providing the option for twice the DPS. The choice is easy, same as it is with the AC/5 versus the Ultra AC/5.

I understand the need to keep TTK reasonable and be vigilant against excessive power creep, but some equipment items just have to be buffed because the alternative is to hammer things down to be as marginally useful. Unless you want to whack everything down that far, and you may not be able to without harming PGi's vision of how the game should be played, that's not going to work.

#7 LordNothing

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 04:55 PM

i wouldnt exactly call the ac10 a bad weapon. my longest kill streak in fp was pulled off with a dual 10 bushie. bagged 5 consecutive kills before they figured i was running an xl engine and i died.

Edited by LordNothing, 05 July 2017 - 04:56 PM.


#8 Y E O N N E

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 05:37 PM

View PostLordNothing, on 05 July 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

i wouldnt exactly call the ac10 a bad weapon. my longest kill streak in fp was pulled off with a dual 10 bushie. bagged 5 consecutive kills before they figured i was running an xl engine and i died.


It isn't strictly bad, no, but in the grand scheme of "the game" it can't do anything well enough. Not enough range or velocity to combine well with PPCs and give the IS a 30-slug of comparable cost and utility to the cGauss + 2xcERPPC combo within 540 meters. Not enough DPS for a pair to displace a trio of AC/5, on top of still having inferior range and velocity. And now, not enough DPS to be worth it over the UAC/10; do I take two more backup ERML, which I don't have tonnage to cool, or have better output from my main weapon? Easy choice. The AC/10 gets taken now pretty much because there's not really anything better (though the BSW-X1 can do 3x AC/5, and I would honestly prefer that to 2x AC/10, especially with that 10% range) when it should get taken because it's actually good at something.

I've done pretty well with the AC/10 myself, but it's not an exaggeration to say that it is far and away more potent on 'Mechs like the CPLT-K2 and RFL-3N, with their powerful velocity and range quirks, than it is in its vanilla state. I choose to take an AC/10 on those 'Mechs because it is a powerful choice on its own merits and not because I can't do something better. But my Marauders suffer when I take an AC/10, and I keep revisiting them to try and get something better. Every time I think I want to pop-tart with it, I end up returning to twin AC/5 and all the extra penalties (smaller engine, less heatsinks, stripped arm, etc.) because it's still better than the 10, though it leaves the 'Mech at just as large of a performance deficit to the Clan alternative. Every time I do DPS on my RFL-3C with AC/10, I end up going back to 3x AC/5 because the velocity is too low to use the range quirks or poke as reliably as the RFL-3N. So on and so forth. Brawlers typically use the LB-10X instead of the AC/10, even at high level play, because the PPFLD of the 10 is less useful than the reduced size and tonnage of the LB-10X.

Ugh. That gun.

#9 FupDup

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 05:42 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 05 July 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

I've done pretty well with the AC/10 myself, but it's not an exaggeration to say that it is far and away more potent on 'Mechs like the CPLT-K2 and RFL-3N, with their powerful velocity and range quirks, than it is in its vanilla state....
Ugh. That gun.

This makes me wonder how weapon quirks are factored into the "global aggregate" that Chris mentioned before...

#10 Y E O N N E

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 05:52 PM

View PostFupDup, on 05 July 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

This makes me wonder how weapon quirks are factored into the "global aggregate" that Chris mentioned before...


I'd be curious to know, too.

At the 450-460 meters some IS 'Mechs could reach with it, the ERML was extraordinarily powerful at 0.77 s duration after skill tree, even with the heat. Like 5x LPL that could alpha-strike without penalty on 'Mechs such as the GHR or TDR-5S-T. But when you stripped those quirks away, it became a little too hot for its range and damage. Not much; an adjustment down to between 4.0 and 4.2 heat would do the trick, but still too hot.

I'm also fairly convinced that standard PPCs need their base range adjusted upwards. They don't really come into their own until you can engage at the commonly-quirked 648 meters. That feels like a good range for them; long enough to not be at-risk for rapid brawl closure and not long enough to make the ER PPC totally redundant. But that's also with a 20-30% velocity increase and usually a 10% heat generation reduction on top of it.

#11 Chados

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 05:57 PM

View PostChris Lowrey, on 05 July 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

I hear this entire notion of small lasers being the baseline and this is patently false. Same with the AC 10. This is something that I have never said, nor would I ever say something to that effect.

The baseline is the aggregate of all the weapons combined over numerous properties and other intended metrics we wish to track and judge against at a global level. It has never, nor will it ever, come down to a single weapon system being compared against others. As that is a fast way to have whatever weapons you establish as the baseline get trapped in a perpetual state of never being reviewed as you are constantly attempting to mold everything else in the game around an artificial goal post that might be flawed in of itself. This is something that is not done now, and something I have no plans of starting anytime soon.


Chris,

What about the suggestion for an AC10 velocity buff? As a serious AC10 user I can tell you that higher velocity would make a big difference to AC10 usability in the midrange. In the 500 meter distance it's very difficult to hit a moving target, harder than with IS PPCs.





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