62 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

We might just start having some IS balance and doing this would just buff clans so no.

[FireStoat]

At the moment with the skill tree, equipment available and most especially the engine decouple from agility, most clan IIC mechs are very nearly on par with Omnimechs of the same class or in some cases are flat out superior. Clan IIC mechs were initial engineering designs later regulated to garrison duty - Omnimechs by lore were supposed to be the better choice.

My solution? When an Omnimech has its chassis specific original loadout of all 8/8 omnipods, a button is highlighted to temporarily lock the configuration which then unlocks the endo, ferro, engine, heat sinks, jump jets - all equipment. In short, an Omnimech using 8/8 original pods is treated as a Battlemech for customization.

A Timber Wolf C pilot could take a 350 or 325 XL engine at the cost of having the C pods in all slots. A Warhawk B pilot using 8/8 B pods can strip that offending torso of its locked heat sinks.This opens the door for parity vs the IIC mechs. Going off of the TT rules, Omnimechs could always change JJ's, HS, and Engine sizes (but not types) regardless of pods used. With how things are now, Omnis are kinda screwed with no compensation.

Edited by FireStoat, 06 July 2017 - 10:33 AM.

[ShadeofHades]

Yeah, process, it would be pretty funny to see IS Omnis forced to play with the same restrictions that Clan chassis have been encumbered with.

And Jay, we HAD the ability to remove those JJs and use the hardpoints at one point, before it was taken away to stem the salt. If I recall correctly, the ability to do this was taken away from ALL omnis apparently because of one or two ST on a single mech at the time - a mech that has received a number of nerfs since, and was running a build that arguably wouldn't do well in today's environment, with its relative lack of ammunition.

[Andi Nagasia]

Monkey Lover, on 06 July 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

We might just start having some IS balance and doing this would just buff clans so no.

how so? if for instance Non-Engine Locked DHS were removable form Clan OmniMechs what would happen?

MLX= 3DHS(can now be Relocated)
ACH= 1DHS(can now be Relocated)
KFX= 3DHS(can now be Relocated)
ADR= 2DHS(can now be Relocated)

NVA= 4DHS(+4tons)
WHK= 7DHS(+7tons)
EXE= 1DHS(+1tons)
DWF= 3DHS(+3tons)

[Brain Cancer]

You can remove all that stuff when standard Battlemechs can rearrange their hardpoints by buying an omnipod.

We don't even have to get three different variants to master one now. Just get one, plug in your pods of choice, go to town.

By comparison, the guy in the standard Mech wants different hardpoints? Buy and skill up a new chassis.

[Andi Nagasia]

Brain Cancer, on 06 July 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

You can remove all that stuff when standard Battlemechs can rearrange their hardpoints by buying an omnipod.

this comes up alot, but you also have to remember BattleMechs get hardpoint inflation,
OmniMechs dont, even the ones that really need more hardpoints dont,

Brain Cancer, on 06 July 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

We don't even have to get three different variants to master one now. Just get one, plug in your pods of choice, go to town.

By comparison, the guy in the standard Mech wants different hardpoints? Buy and skill up a new chassis.

yes you would have to buy several BattleMechs sometimes to benefit from what OmniMechs have,

in this case an HMN Omni can Switch between Missile, Laser, & Ballistic harpoints,
you would need 3 HMN BattleMechs to do that and have access to those hardpoints true,
but lets not forget all those Choices BattleMechs Have, Endo/Ferro/Engine/JJ, not locked Equipment,


theirs a question, if the TBR-S was a BattleMech would it be better or Worse than the TBR-S Omni?
think about that, what could you Bring on a TBR-S without Locked Upgrade Crits and Engine?

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 06 July 2017 - 11:35 AM.

[Valhallan]

Night Thastus, on 06 July 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

True, but as time has passed, they've strayed further and further from it. Which is a good thing, IMO. Ammo values aren't lore. Armor/structure values aren't lore. Damage/heat values often aren't lore. Range isn't lore values either. Only thing that's consistently stayed within lore values is slots/tonnage of weapons and equipment, and even some equipment like TC's isn't really like that.

Plus, if we were really going by lore, all non-omnis (IIC's included) would need like 6 months just to change out a couple weapons. And changing a small laser to something like a PPC would basically be impossible.

Not that I advocate for that, it'd be terrible. But it is technically "lore".

I wouldn't mind that if we had logistics, of course if we went by that it would also mean that clan mechs would be limited production, especially the fairy dust C-XL, There would need to be full repair & rearm too with possible loss of mechs and equipment, it would also mean a lot of "clanners" would not even be able to use more than solahma mechs given the limited production (production sales day would be like black friday sales for things like the NGYR), they'd also quickly just get relegated to playing salvaged IS gear given the attrition rates. That's all lore too, and well i'm ok with that .

Oh also you're wrong about the 6 months, the longest refit is the endo skeleton and takes about 3.75 months to do (using their 6 hr a day workaday), 6 months is when you are doing endo+xl switch and totally stripping everything out and putting different stuff in (i.e. rebuilding everything from a moldy oldy mech with only base everything), switching a weapon is 1 day if its same size or smaller, 2 days if its larger, yes it was possible to stuff larger things in. Only major structural changes like endo & xl switching needed a factory date.

Alteran, on 06 July 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

In Lore, the IS Battlemech was next to impossible to customize. It was one of the main reasons why there were a small handful of variants available. Nevermind swapping out engines, structure and so on. Right now the true Omnimech in MWO is the IS Battlemech.

In Lore, the Clan Omnimech had standard configurations that were used, but they were not limited in any way. Pilots could still use customized configurations together for situational combat conditions, like Aiden Pryde did on Tukayyid by having most of his Galaxies omni's configured with energy based weapons to eliminate ammo shortages and JJs for increased mobility and versatility.

What, IS mechs were customized ALL THE TIME in solaris and some of the more wealthy merc units, hell IS even made frankenmechs like the schwerer gustav/temax cat ninjabolt which is literally strapping different mech parts together, the reason there were "few" variants was because the IS mechs were built to do one job in general, so of course there are less variants on them compared to the clanner mechs which have a variant for every situation, also it was frakking expensive to do and unlike the clanners the majority of the IS mechpilots, excepting the few solaris jocks and mercs, are like standard soldiers, you don't get to pick your duty assignments and specific gear until you are high ranked (you especially are not allowed to tinker with them, and i doubt could even afford the parts necessary).

Uh yes the omnimech configurations were limited, i can't off the top of my head remember a clan character ruining his omnimech with a structural custom job, most just refitted weapons if they even bothered since a lot like natasha just went stock. I don't remember pryde doing that since the timber he was using was still mounting lrm's, thought only the wolves did it, but even if he did it was still only a weapon shift, the jj thing could've just been a reorganization of mechs and him bringing the jj capable along, the jj flanking maneuver he did was only with his command star after all not his entire galaxy.

FireStoat, on 06 July 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

My solution? When an Omnimech has its chassis specific original loadout of all 8/8 omnipods, a button is highlighted to temporarily lock the configuration which then unlocks the endo, ferro, engine, heat sinks, jump jets - all equipment. In short, an Omnimech using 8/8 original pods is treated as a Battlemech for customization.

Yea, ive said this too in previous similar threads, this kind of thing i can get behind. Unfortunately i feel that it's like the ammo switching thing and we're probably never gonna get it.

Oh yea, the lore match-up for a clan star of 5 is a IS company of 12, not 2 lances. the wait times on clan-side would be immense.

Edited by Valhallan, 06 July 2017 - 12:14 PM.

[ShadeofHades]

IS refits required the highest level of repair/manufacturing facility - you were basically rebuilding the mech underneath the armor fittings. Incidentally, the same thing is required to refit a Clan omni. Beyond attaching a replacement or jury-rigging something smaller in the weapon hardpoints (and hoping you don't f*** your electrical/ammo feed hookups) you couldn't do much to a battlemech without months of work. Solaris was the equivalent of the Colosseum in Rome, and of course it had all the manufacturing and workshops needed to refit/repair/rearm its gladiators, and prepare them for whatever the day's circus would be.

As a counter-point, "refitting weapons" for an Omni was simply slotting in and securing an n-crit-size pod, according to lore. A giant version of server racks, maybe with a few more bolts and screws. I think you'd see less upset over some of the fixed equipment slotting if that still held true - lore is that any clan mech had those empty spaces where pod-encapsulated weapons would be attached and they would work. Running a MLX with a PPC and ECM one day, and configuring it roughly as a PIranha the next? That'd be fine by TT rules. Likewise taking a NVA-Prime, removing all the ERMLs, and covering one arm in enough MGs to fill its crit slots on one arm and SRM2s on the other. No limb swapping required, just a few hours for your techs to remove the laser pods and insert the missile pods.

[J0anna]

Valhallan, on 06 July 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

the jj flanking maneuver he did was only with his command star after all not his entire galaxy.

Not Quite, "Falcon Guard", Chapter 29...My Falcon Guards have all been ordered to mount jump jet modules (so Joanna in her Mad Dog had JJ's, impossible in MWO - so much for lore), and we can find a place to use them, and we will use them... Kael Pershaw glanced over at the still-silent Khan, who responded with a quick nod. "I think you are free to go. Assemble the Falcon Guards and find your way across the river. You go with the blessings of your Khan, your Clan, and the immortal Kerenskys...Additionally...Star Colonel Marthe Pryde, stepping forward from the milling crowd of Clan commanders. Mar Helmer granted the request. Marthe stood up, feet spread apart, arms akimbo. "I command the Second Falcon Cluster," she said. "Many of our 'Mechs are equipped with jump jets. I wish to volunteer those 'Mechs, mine included, to join Star Colonel Aidan Pryde in this mission. I believe that the more personnel we can commit to the campaign to take the other side of the river, the better the chances of our success. I at this time formalize the request."

So the entire Falcon Guard as well as selected elements of the Second Falcon Cluster actually made the jump across the Prezno River on Tukayyid....

Edited by J0anna, 06 July 2017 - 12:44 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Andi Nagasia, on 06 July 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

how so? if for instance Non-Engine Locked DHS were removable form Clan OmniMechs what would happen?

MLX= 3DHS(can now be Relocated)
ACH= 1DHS(can now be Relocated)
KFX= 3DHS(can now be Relocated)
ADR= 2DHS(can now be Relocated)

NVA= 4DHS(+4tons)
WHK= 7DHS(+7tons)
EXE= 1DHS(+1tons)
DWF= 3DHS(+3tons)

How wouldn't this be a buff? First thing I would do is take all but 1 jj off the Summoner and Nova for more weapons lol

There is almost no other reason to want these unlocked but to add more power.

[ShadeofHades]

Most of those mechs are seen as underperforming, aren't they? I think implicit in his suggestion is that it WOULD be a buff. Though as an avid NVA pilot, I'm not sure that one in particular is necessary.

[Monkey Lover]

ShadeofHades, on 06 July 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Most of those mechs are seen as underperforming, aren't they? I think implicit in his suggestion is that it WOULD be a buff. Though as an avid NVA pilot, I'm not sure that one in particular is necessary.

Almost all these mechs are getting buffs on the next patch with new hardpoints. Even the junk lynx is getting 8machine-gun and 4 energy here soon.

[TheArisen]

Tarogato, on 06 July 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

In general, no. Hardlocked DHS, JJ, engine, structure, and ferro should all stay. That's how omni's work.


But I can stand to make some exceptions to the locked rule for weapons and useless equipment:

- cAP on the Mist Lynx
- Flamer on the Adder
- SHS and TAG on the Owens
- BAP on the Men Shen
- ML on the Avatar
- Flamer on the Balius
- Flamer on the Firestarter (omni)

This is the most sensible.

[Valhallan]

J0anna, on 06 July 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Book stuff

Wups, my bad, he still didn't really take his whole galaxy though since he lost 11 mechs on the jump . As for the JJ's well if it ain't reorganization, it could be customized pod mounted JJ's, hardwired JJ's is impossibru to modify but pod mounted tacking on is supposedly possible (a pod is not a limb like in MWO, im assuming leg jj's are the hardwired kind). And being in the big fight should get some priority to have some made.

ShadeofHades, on 06 July 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

IS refits required the highest level of repair/manufacturing facility - you were basically rebuilding the mech underneath the armor fittings. Incidentally, the same thing is required to refit a Clan omni. Beyond attaching a replacement or jury-rigging something smaller in the weapon hardpoints (and hoping you don't f*** your electrical/ammo feed hookups) you couldn't do much to a battlemech without months of work. Solaris was the equivalent of the Colosseum in Rome, and of course it had all the manufacturing and workshops needed to refit/repair/rearm its gladiators, and prepare them for whatever the day's circus would be.

As a counter-point, "refitting weapons" for an Omni was simply slotting in and securing an n-crit-size pod, according to lore. A giant version of server racks, maybe with a few more bolts and screws. I think you'd see less upset over some of the fixed equipment slotting if that still held true - lore is that any clan mech had those empty spaces where pod-encapsulated weapons would be attached and they would work. Running a MLX with a PPC and ECM one day, and configuring it roughly as a PIranha the next? That'd be fine by TT rules. Likewise taking a NVA-Prime, removing all the ERMLs, and covering one arm in enough MGs to fill its crit slots on one arm and SRM2s on the other. No limb swapping required, just a few hours for your techs to remove the laser pods and insert the missile pods.

As i said it depended on the refit, Endo/standard or engine swapping? to the factory with you!, but the standard weapon swaps he was talking about? yea you can do it outside a factory, replacing with a larger weapon just needed a standard maintenance area (which a base or dropship will have), same size or smaller just meant you could do it in the woods under that tent. Omnimech just cut down the time enough that instead of a day swapping one weapon they could replace all the pods by morning and the mech will be good to go by the afternoon. It's still not going to reach months however unless you strip your small number of tiny stock weapons and stuff in 30 or so small lasers as replacement.

Edited by Valhallan, 06 July 2017 - 03:15 PM.

[J0anna]

Look I understand the need for balance, locked ferro/endo/engine/MASC and the first 10 HS (and that agrees w/BT construction rules)- sure, but JJ's should never be locked, nor should CAP, any weapon, or non-engine HS (above the first 10) they are not locked as per the BT master rules. That should apply for both clan and IS omnimechs.

[Andi Nagasia]

Monkey Lover, on 06 July 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

How wouldn't this be a buff? First thing I would do is take all but 1 jj off the Summoner and Nova for more weapons lol

There is almost no other reason to want these unlocked but to add more power.

well its just your tone, in the Quote,

Monkey Lover, on 06 July 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

We might just start having some IS balance and doing this would just buff clans so no.

seemed that, of Assuming that Any Buff to Clan no matter to which mech, or however small, is bad,

in this regard, im asking how would it be bad?

Andi Nagasia, on 06 July 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

how so? if for instance Non-Engine Locked DHS were removable form Clan OmniMechs what would happen?

MLX= 3DHS(can now be Relocated)
ACH= 1DHS(can now be Relocated)
KFX= 3DHS(can now be Relocated)
ADR= 2DHS(can now be Relocated)

NVA= 4DHS(+4tons)
WHK= 7DHS(+7tons)
EXE= 1DHS(+1tons)
DWF= 3DHS(+3tons)

the first 4 are just being allowed to mover around the DHSs,
which for the MLX would be able to carry MG ammo in ether ST,
the KFX would be able to put a High non MG Ballistic in its LT,
the ACH and ADR wouldnt benefit too much but thats ok,

the last 4?
well the NVA & WHK is an energy boat so this wouldnt help it boat Energy more,
as your losing DHSs to get Tonnage, which would help with Ballistic / Missile Builds,
and with the WHK you would be able to now spread Ballistic / Missile ammo to the LT,
the EXE and DWF wouldnt benefit too much but thats ok,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 06 July 2017 - 03:33 PM.

[Cybrid 0x0t2md2w]

I've always been for unlocking fixed equipment in omnimechs. largely JJ, DHS, masc, flamer/bap/smalluselessthing and allowing armor and internals to be altered. or I dunno, at least move one fixed structure from the shadowcat right arm to the left to allow an lbx 20?

it's not like pgi kept with multiple variants with and without JJ and other changes to make each one different. most are carbon copies with different hardpoints and quirks. and that's always been sad and lackluster in customizing or even wanting to buy a new mech of the same type.

if this buffed clans it'd sooner buff the WORSE OFF clan mechs, because guess what! the best clans are *drum roll* night gyr and mad IIC. I mean who honestly plays with a warhawk with these two? it can't even properly boat cerppcs very well without the person wanting to change to gauss and a ppc or vomet. it'd be refreshing and fun to toy with a lot of those locked gear mechs with m,roe viability.

[Jedi Outcast]

No CAP on Myst Lynx, and no hard locked JJ on Summoners!

Come on PGI!

[Alteran]

Valhallan, on 06 July 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

What, IS mechs were customized ALL THE TIME in solaris and some of the more wealthy merc units, hell IS even made frankenmechs like the schwerer gustav/temax cat ninjabolt which is literally strapping different mech parts together, the reason there were "few" variants was because the IS mechs were built to do one job in general, so of course there are less variants on them compared to the clanner mechs which have a variant for every situation, also it was frakking expensive to do and unlike the clanners the majority of the IS mechpilots, excepting the few solaris jocks and mercs, are like standard soldiers, you don't get to pick your duty assignments and specific gear until you are high ranked (you especially are not allowed to tinker with them, and i doubt could even afford the parts necessary).

Uh yes the omnimech configurations were limited, i can't off the top of my head remember a clan character ruining his omnimech with a structural custom job, most just refitted weapons if they even bothered since a lot like natasha just went stock. I don't remember pryde doing that since the timber he was using was still mounting lrm's, thought only the wolves did it, but even if he did it was still only a weapon shift, the jj thing could've just been a reorganization of mechs and him bringing the jj capable along, the jj flanking maneuver he did was only with his command star after all not his entire galaxy.

IS mechs were few so far between in customization is what I would refer to, not quite all the time. The Solaris customization's were even lucky to work and required a highly skilled jerry-rigging tech to get them to a state where everything would actually work. Now in the years after the invasion of the Clans, top ranked Mechwarriors had Clan tech swapped in as they were able to, but it still took a lot of rigging to get it to work.

As for Omni's and Battlemechs, I never agreed with swapping out structure. That's like trying to swap out your car's standard heavy frame for a light grade steel and back as you pleased. Never was a fan of that. As for the Aiden quote, I am fairly sure that most of his remaining forces after the first engagement had as many of their ammo based weapons swapped out, but as for the JJ's I can't be certain. His maneuver to cross the river using Jump capable mechs is what I remember most.

Edited by Alteran, 06 July 2017 - 04:17 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Kiran Yagami, on 06 July 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

Probably not. The fixed structure, jump jet, and armor slots are all lore, and PGI loves teh lorez.

Ok then are we going to be making a move to being able to pilot only Stock IS mechs because you know in lore, you couldn't actually modify ANYTHING on an IS battlemech without sending it to the factory for an extended period for modifications. I mean I guess we could leave IS mechs customizable and simulate the factory modification by making the mech unavailable to play for at least 90 days if you changed its load out, I mean since we are going to be lore friendly and such.