22 replies to this topic

[Greyhart]

Absolutely nothing!

Sorry silly title.

But what is balance and what do we mean by it?

Is it that all the weapons/mechs are equally viable i.e. over an average match they produce the same damage.

Or is it that each weapon/ mech has a purpose? that purpose may not come up in the match and may not produce results.

I think we have to look at it as the second option. But then we have to ask what are the roles/ purposes of the weapons (I am limiting to weapons as an easier concept).

What are the roles in this shooter?

Well the first thing that comes to mind is info warfare. But lets be frank if it doesn't do damage it doesn't really get a real look in. So lets ignore that, because until info warfare provides damage bonuses then most aren't going to worry about it.

Well classically in shooters we have:

Sniper (I'd say over 500m in MWO); long range, slow rate of fire and accurate but difficult to aim at moving target. Classically you have a scope view that removes peripheral vision and can also contain automatic drift (the crosshairs move with no input). Large laser, gauss.

Mid range (500m to 250m); faster rate of fire, usually spreads a lot of shots, moderate amount of damage. this is suppressing fire (for want of a better phrase), the purpose is to make the opponent think about moving more carefully. A hit hurts but a lot of shots will miss. From your sniper rifle to you maxim machine gun. AC2?

short range (less than 250m): rapid accurate fire, each shot is low damage but they all count and hit where you aim. Small lasers, machine guns


At the moment in MWO there is nothing that really fits the mid range and all the weapons have the same amount of accuracy. (roughly speaking thinking mainly of lasers here).

In the Fantasy RPG games we have:

Tank: constant damage output and ability to take damage. This is the close up stuff again

Healer/ control/ utility: Healer is not helpful here so I am, like guildwars 2, ditching it and going on control/utility. This role doesn't deal great amounts of damage but makes everyone else more effective and can control the battlefield.

The glass cannon: deals lots of damage but is easy to kill.

We can again do tank and glass cannon (but you can also do both at the same time) but no real role for utility. Narc & Tag but they only effect one weapon system.

We also have different ways to apply damage.

There is those that require constant face time; Machine guns, AC2, SML. These I refer to as high DPS weapons. in other genres this might be daggers, machine guns.

those that can be fired and you can move i.e. LL, gauss. These are burst damage weapons. Again in other genre this would be two handed hammer, sniper rifle.

But on all of them the accuracy doesn't change. SM have the same accuracy as LL.

As we can see the problem with balance stems from a lack of defined roles that the game is designed around.

There is no major disadvantage in being a sniper in MWO and no major benefit to being specced for close or mid-range (brawling) as the sniper weapons are also useful in those areas.

There is no info warfare because it doesn't modify damage.

to achieve balance we therefore need a design document that defines the roles and looks to make weapons and mechs fit those roles whilst being bad at the other roles.

[Karl Streiger]

Greyhart, on 07 July 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

to achieve balance we therefore need a design document that defines the roles and looks to make weapons and mechs fit those roles whilst being bad at the other roles.

QFT & TLDR

[UnofficialOperator]

6 mpls is pretty much mid range no?

[Greyhart]

UnofficialOperator, on 07 July 2017 - 05:26 AM, said:

6 mpls is pretty much mid range no?

yes, you could say that I'd say short, but they work exactly the same as LPL and so are like a short range sniper rifle.

They don't fulfil a role they are just a different flavour of the same thing all lasers are.

[mailin]

UnofficialOperator, on 07 July 2017 - 05:26 AM, said:

6 mpls is pretty much mid range no?

Yes, pretty much. Although some would argue that that is on the short end of medium.

[ScrapIron Prime]

UnofficialOperator, on 07 July 2017 - 05:26 AM, said:

6 mpls is pretty much mid range no?

No. A mid range mech is going to fight in the 400-500 meter range, out of range of SRM's. At that range, you could get away with a clan ER Medium, but all other mediums are trailing off damage. Large Lasers, PPC's, Autocannon 5 and 10, LRM... these are the weapons of someone who fights in that range band with an Inner Sphere mech. For clans, ERML, LPL, Ultra 10, LRM.

The classic IS mech is designed to fight in this range. A couple large weapon systems backed by a battery of small stuff for short range. But that's not the meta in MWO.

[El Bandito]

CERML, LLaser, and AC5s/10s are mid range weapons.

[Sjorpha]

To me balance is when every mech and piece of equipment has at least 1 plausible in-game situation where it is the most optimal one to have.

So basically there are to requirements for balance.

The first is that each different type of mech and piece of equipment is good enough compared to everything else that it is sometimes optimal, so for example if LRMs have a specific situation where they are stronger than say cERPPCs then it's ok if cERPPCs are better on average, because LRMs still have a niche in those few situation where they are stronger.

The other requirement is that each mech and piece of equipment has a specific strength/weakness that makes it sometimes the optimal choice among all the alternatives for it's role/type. So for example IS ERPPCs must have situations where it is more optimal than cERPPCs and so on.

The second one is more difficult and the reason why one thing being strictly better that something else is such horrible design, because the strictly better version is always the optimal choice.

The more different the mechs and equipment are the more "imbalance" you can afford, the more similar they are the more difficult it is to balance them. This is why the Clan vs IS autocannons are much better and easier to balance than the Clan vs IS Gauss rifles for example, because the gauss rifles are too similar. If they wanted to balance them the best idea would be to make the IS gauss work differently from Clan gauss so it could have a different niche and be worth it's extra tonnage and crits. LFE in the PTS has the same problem as the gauss, strictly worse than cXL with no difference to work with.

Edited by Sjorpha, 07 July 2017 - 08:23 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Thanks Greyhart, now I'm going to have that song in my head all day!

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Greyhart, on 07 July 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

Tank: constant damage output and ability to take damage. This is the close up stuff again

Healer/ control/ utility: Healer is not helpful here so I am, like guildwars 2, ditching it and going on control/utility. This role doesn't deal great amounts of damage but makes everyone else more effective and can control the battlefield.

The glass cannon: deals lots of damage but is easy to kill.

Tank: Dragon, Roughneck, Atlas

Utility: 3 AMS Nova, 3 AMS+ECM KitFox, NARC/TAG users, LRMs

Glass Cannon: Dire Wolf, Ebon Jaguar, Hunchback IIC


While PGI hasn't defined the roles fully, there are mechs in various roles in this game already, though some don't go too far into their role.

Dragon gets to be a tank due to the high armor and structure quirks it gets, Dire Wolf is a glass cannon due to super high firepower but a combination of low speed and bad hitboxes make it vulnerable to return fire, LRMs and all that supports or defeats them act as a utility that makes people cautious of moving out into the open or defends them so that they can walk freely.


We also have snipers, mid range, and short range here.

Snipers: Gauss+ERPPC builds and ERLL builds
Mid Range: CERML builds, LPL builds, LRMs, mid range ACs, CMPL
Short Range/Brawlers: AC20s, LBX, SRMs, SPLs, ISMPL

We even have an extra class known as DPS that plays differently than the normal midrange/sniper and usually has a range between the two. This class consists of massed autocannons for the most part.

[Tarl Cabot]

Balanced? iie, but there can be parity between the techs, a little here, a little there. But they should be built from the a similar foundation.

Internal Structure and armor points , before inherent quirks or Skill Tree, same for each mech. Weapons - IS energy generally shorter range, less damage but can run cooler with a shorter duration. Other weapon systems have different outputs. All mechs have the same amount of critical slots. Omnis have locked components but can change out hardpoints via omnipods while c/is battlemechs do not have that ability but have no locked components.

IS components tend to be heavier and bulkier than Clan components, with IS weight saving components taking up 2x as much crits as Clan battlemech, and locked components for Clan Omni.

The components that are the biggest outliers, which affects not only the mech's payload, speed and damage output but ALSO on whether or not a mech dies to the loss of ONE side torso are isXL vs cXL (and soon to be LFE). isXL/cXL both have a 50% weight savings when compared to the STD while the LFE has only a 25% weight savings.

Remember, IS components tend to be HEAVIER and BULKIER than Clan components but to even ATTEMPT to approach but not exceed Clan speed, firepower, an isXL is required but when a side torso is destroyed due to PGI using an archaic TT rule, and then ONLY a PORTION of that ruleset. That is a foundation that is not in parity in equivalent.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 07 July 2017 - 02:52 PM.

[Greyhart]

A thought occurs to me whilst reading the response.

A Tank class usually has lots of armour and whilst its firepower is ok it's not spectacular.

whilst changing to a lighter armour takes up crit slots the amount of armour doesn't effect the amount of internal space.

It might be an interesting factor that the more armour you have the less internal space is available for weapons. making the assaults decide between the glass cannon and tank role.

a passing thought.


How do we define the roles and the attributes needed to fulfill those roles.

[LordNothing]

i think meta should be a moving goalpost. if anything it doesn't move fast enough. excessive balance is boring.

[Greyhart]

LordNothing, on 10 July 2017 - 03:44 AM, said:

i think meta should be a moving goalpost. if anything it doesn't move fast enough. excessive balance is boring.

It should move but not all over the place and too quickly.

The problem with laser vomit or gauss and PPC vomit is that there is no good counters to it.

[davoodoo]

Except that rpg trinity doesnt apply to battlemechs.

Theres no healer and tankier you get the more dmg you put.

100 tonner should be able to put more damage than 95 tonner which should be able to put more dmg than 90 tonner which should be able to put more dmg than 85 tonner which should be able put more dmg than 80 otnner and so on till we hit 20tons.

Role is battlemech, we can define its function, but it comes naturally, jagermech high arms?? sniper.

Edited by davoodoo, 11 July 2017 - 01:43 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Greyhart, on 10 July 2017 - 01:29 AM, said:

How do we define the roles and the attributes needed to fulfill those roles.

"We" don't really, that is the job of the devs to craft the roles, and to make sure the mechs live up to them.

Right now, after the many many mechpacks that have been released over the years, the lines between any kinds of "roles" for mech classes have blurred wildly. The latest hit to the idea of class roles is the linebacker, as fast as most mediums and a number of lights with the weight and firepower of a heavy and the tankiness of one to boot, and the tallness of a medium...

If there was a role that was being filled by some mediums and lights close to linebacker stats, the linebacker kind of obsoleted them, as it is better at all of the potential roles of those mechs.

[davoodoo]

Shifty McSwift, on 11 July 2017 - 01:35 AM, said:

If there was a role that was being filled by some mediums and lights close to linebacker stats, the linebacker kind of obsoleted them, as it is better at all of the potential roles of those mechs.

Maybe if we didnt have tonnage based mm and drop decks.

Now id rather save 15 tons and get medium than bother with linebacker...

1 for 1 linebacker will be better than medium, but if we take team composition and tonnage that linebacker will allow me to get mad 2c instead of tbr.

Edited by davoodoo, 11 July 2017 - 01:47 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

davoodoo, on 11 July 2017 - 01:30 AM, said:

Except that rpg trinity doesnt apply to battlemechs.

Theres no healer and tankier you get the more dmg you put.

100 tonner should be able to put more damage than 95 tonner which should be able to put more dmg than 90 tonner which should be able to put more dmg than 85 tonner which should be able put more dmg than 80 otnner and so on till we hit 20tons.

You come close to a issue here - a real working "roll concept could only work in similar weight classes"

when you have only 60ton Mechs - you can trade speed armor and weapons - but with 20ton and 100t Mechs plus pinpoint accurate FPS weapons you have a much harder time to balance those roles.
Because the game mechanics don't support - speed is life. a -10-15m/s faster assault is still a huge target - so trade armor for mobility is not an option.

a light that is only 21m/s fast (Cougar) *cough trade speed for armor and weapons but he can not take enough armor. Matched against 85-90t assaults will put the Cougar in the position of a DOA Mech.

So when your game mechanics doesn't provide a solution for such enormous discrepancys - you need to solve it with logic.

When the Cougar get his "own" bucket were the biggest mech he encounteres is a Nova - and the pilot get some benefit for taking a 35 instead of a 50t mechs - than it has a place.
Same could be work for Vindicator, Phoenix Hawks - and all the other less valid Mechs.

Its strange for me that PGI decided to go WoT in terms of game play - but ignored the "Tiers" and tried to enforce the true lance system (Cogar vs MadCatII ) or as you've just writen linebacker vs lights and mediums

Edited by Karl Streiger, 11 July 2017 - 01:48 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

davoodoo, on 11 July 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

Maybe if we didnt have tonnage based mm and drop decks.

Now id rather save 15 tons and get medium than bother with linebacker...

Tonnage restrictions are one of the main turnoffs for me when it comes to group/faction play. Class restrictions would work much better, like with comp play's restrictions, but that's another discussion.

If the linebacker cannot take those specific roles, then it can't take those roles/doesn't obsolete those mechs, but in all other scenarios, the linebacker wins out.

[davoodoo]

Karl Streiger, on 11 July 2017 - 01:47 AM, said:

a light that is only 21m/s fast (Cougar) *cough trade speed for armor and weapons but he can not take enough armor. Matched against 85-90t assaults will put the Cougar in the position of a DOA Mech.

Heres where you make mistake.

Cougar got 19 tons of pod space.
So it can take cgauss+ammo and erll.

Each cougar weights 35 tons.
So 3 of them will carry 3 gausses and 3 erll and combined they have over 600 armor while moving at 81kph and being small targets.

Sure 100 tonner kodiak will be able to carry 3 erll and 3 gauss but even without gh it would run into heat problems firing them and while it also got over 600 armor it is much bigger target which is way slower.

You dont balance mechs 1 for 1, but tonnage for tonnage.

For 35 tons cougar carries staggering amount of firepower, as much as shadowcat...

Edited by davoodoo, 11 July 2017 - 02:00 AM.