51 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Could we please just get 35% more damage for the LBXs?

RNG is already annoying with it's "**** you in particular", especially the time where your UAC just stops working for no reason other than to piss you off. And then we could get random equipment or component destroyed even when there's still armor, which is just messed up. Imagine an ammo explosion, lol.

So what if mechs may not get naked when played cautiously? That was the point, you don't be a hero, you don't get to be a dead hero.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 July 2017 - 02:46 AM.

[Khobai]

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In MWO with the way things are and have been, single slug is simply just better than buckshot.

its only better if its better

if single slug mode fired a lot slower and LBX fired a lot faster, would it still be better in every situation?

certainly there are ways to balance LBX having alternate fire modes. thats not the problem.

the problem is getting pgi to actually code alternate fire modes for LBX...

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Could we please just get 35% more damage for the LBXs?

35% more damage seems excessive to me. I think 10%-20% more damage would probably be fine.

But also they need to make LBX better at critting. They need to increase the crit damage multiplier because x2 isnt high enough for LBX to actually crit out weapons. A weapon with 10 health has to get critted by 5 pellets to get destroyed.... thats ridiculous.... before that can actually happen the entire location is already destroyed.

Edited by Khobai, 11 July 2017 - 02:40 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 02:31 AM, said:

LBX need to be better at critting. They need to increase the crit damage multiplier because x2 isnt high enough that LBX actually crit out weapons. A weapon with 10 health has to get critted by 5 pellets to get destroyed.... thats ridiculous.... before that can actually happen the entire location is already destroyed.

Here you go again, throwing "need to be x" without good reason behind it. You also need to explain why current mechanic sucks, because if anything, weapons getting critted out immediately sucks even more. Lots of existing mechs do have structure quirks, and that just bypasses a lot of their durability. Imagine a neutered atlas, no MW in his right mind would shoot it over non-neutered mechs. So really no point in durability, when nobody would shoot at you anyways.

I say 1.35 damage/pellet, so the crit-damage "works" on armor too. And we finally get the proper FPS shotgun that's worth taking, you know the LB20X.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 July 2017 - 02:45 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

The6thMessenger, on 11 July 2017 - 02:30 AM, said:

RNG is already annoying with it's "**** you in particular"

Agreed, more RNG is not a good idea, less is better here for sure. There almost always has to be some elements of RNG in gaming, and some games thrive on more, but here IMO less is always better, minimise it to the max

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 02:31 AM, said:

its only better if its better

if single slug mode fired a lot slower and LBX fired a lot faster, would it still be better in every situation?

certainly there are ways to balance LBX having alternate fire modes. thats not the problem.

the problem is getting pgi to actually code alternate fire modes for LBX...



LBX need to be better at critting. They need to increase the crit damage multiplier because x2 isnt high enough that LBX actually crit out weapons. A weapon with 10 health has to get critted by 5 pellets to get destroyed.... thats ridiculous.... by the time that actually happens the entire location is already destroyed.

Well, sure there's lots of things that could be done, and we don't even have ammo switching.

I would probably be happy with a number of solutions posited by people (happier than what we have now in some cases), it is just my thoughts on it, my armchair developer input on the functionality of what we have, being AC considered a different gun to LBX, and also with PPC and gauss in mind (gauss in particular, if it was the only single slug weapon, it retains meta power even vs the AC20), to have one (AC) function as a short burst, and one as a splat spread, the size of the spread and length of the stream would scale in a relative way to keep them comparative.

Again I would be fine with a boost to LBX in many ways, but I would be fine with a lot of things, it is weird to me that people respond so adversely to what they perceive as a nerf, and instead would advocate a separate buff so happily, the solution is going to be considered either a nerf or a buff at the end of the day, so if you want change it has to go one way or the other.

[Khobai]

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Here you go again, throwing "need to be x" without good reason behind it. You also need to explain why current mechanic sucks, because if anything, weapons getting critted out immediately sucks even more.

I already explained why the current mechanic sucks.

Because theres not enough internal structure on mechs so hit locations get destroyed way faster than weapons get critted out. And I said nothing about weapons "getting critted out immediately".

Also for some dumb reason, critical hits do bonus damage to internal structure, which just contributes to making that problem worse. it defeats the purpose of getting crits, which is to destroy weapons inside a location rather than destroying the location itself.

And with LBX crit multiplier only set at x2, LBX will destroy an entire location faster than it will actually crit out weapons. Which is problematic since LBX is supposed to be one of the best crit weapons in the game. It should be the complete opposite, LBX should crit out weapons faster than it destroys hit locations.

The best solution is probably to give mechs more internal structure (as well as make LBX better at critting). And the best way to do that is make standard structure give a +25% internal structure bonus. That way theres a compelling reason to use it over endo. And if theres a reason to actually use standard structure, then ferro fibrous will get used as well.

Edited by Khobai, 11 July 2017 - 02:54 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

I already explained why the current mechanic sucks.

because theres not enough internal structure on mechs so hit locations get destroyed way faster than weapons get critted out.

also for some dumb reason, critical hits do bonus damage to internal structure, which just contributes to making that problem worse.

And with LBX crit multiplier only set at x2, LBX will destroy an entire location, faster than it will crit out weapons in that location.

Hey that is a fair point. As of late structures have seemed to me to be much tougher than pre skill tree for sure, but I can see the point you mean, you still think the rates are too low overall.

To me I have gotten used to the pre skill tree rates and now post skill tree rates, so to me they seem fine, but it could be interesting to see them expanded there.

What annoys me in that regard is how basic the info is about structure and armor condition, just having the color variation to work with is a bit too much guesswork.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

because theres not enough internal structure on mechs so hit locations get destroyed way faster than weapons get critted out.

And with LBX crit multiplier only set at x2, LBX will destroy an entire location, faster than it will crit out weapons in that location.

And is that bad why? Maybe it's not supposed to be for just critting equipment out? Compared to an MG, it already does more damage at more range.

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

also for some dumb reason, critical hits do bonus damage to internal structure, which just contributes to making that problem worse.

Again, why? Don't you think it's actual niche is janitorial than a shotgun-surgeon? You know, to rack up those destroyed components, than actually getting equipment destroyed. What do you even get out of destroying equipment but retaining components?

Do you want to magically neuter enemies just because they're naked? Because that's totally OP. You can already focus pellets on a torso and strip of armor, albeit spread like SRMs, but that's waaay better than MGs.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 July 2017 - 02:57 AM.

[Khobai]

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And is that bad why? Maybe it's not supposed to be for just critting equipment out? Compared to an MG, it already does more damage at more range.

I agree LBX is not just for critting equipment out. But it is still supposed to be one of the best weapons for critting equipment out.

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What do you even get out of destroying equipment but retaining components?

Because destroying equipment with crits is supposed to be easier than destroying components.

Hence why mechs need more internal structure.

The primary benefit of a crit weapon over a non-crit weapon is the ability to disable weapons faster than you could by destroying the component outright.

The only way PGI can fix their current crit system is to substantially increase internal structure.

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Do you want to magically neuter enemies just because they're naked, because that's totally OP. You can already focus pellets on a torso, albeit spread like SRMs, but that's waaay better than MGs.

Its not really OP. Because you still have to breach open the armor to get crits. The only way youd be totally screwed by crits is if you put all your weapons in the same hit location. Which quite frankly should be discouraged anyway because stacking weapons in the same hit location only increases PPFLD.

Edited by Khobai, 11 July 2017 - 03:07 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

I agree LBX is not just for critting equipment out. But it is still supposed to be one of the best weapons for critting equipment out.





Because destroying equipment is supposed to be easier than destroying components.

Hence why mechs need more internal structure.

In the case of torso mounted big guns on my big mechs, I find they get broken regularly enough for it to be annoying.

Guns in arms can go whole games without ever even being threatened to be destroyed in how people can just choose to ignore them, and often do, so it might be a case of the weapons you are using and the hardpoints you utilise if you aren't seeing destroyed weapons in battle at all or not often enough.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

I agree LBX is not just for critting equipment out. But it is still supposed to be one of the best weapons for critting equipment out.

Well, it's already critting out a component, why isn't that enough? Don't you think we have weapon balance to maintain?

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

Because destroying equipment is supposed to be easier than destroying components.

You're already getting a better result by nuking a component out of it's misery and disabling anything in it.

[Khobai]

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You're already getting a better result by nuking a component out of it's misery and disabling anything in it.

again thats why mechs need more internal structure. to make nuking entire components more difficult and make crits more productive.

[Shifty McSwift]

I hate to bring reality into it, but some weapons do seem extremely tough now that you bring it up, any exposed gun surviving a direct hit by an AC20 for example seems quite silly, but then would that impact on that weapon really count toward damage on the mech, there might be some transfer damage etc...

But just conversely to your idea of making structure tougher, another solution there could be to make weapons overall weaker in their health.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 11 July 2017 - 03:14 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

The primary benefit of a crit weapon over a non-crit weapon is the ability to disable weapons faster than you could by destroying the component outright.

So it's a buff? I agree that LBXs need some sort of buff, but not this one.

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

Its not really OP. Because you still have to breach open the armor to get crits. The only way youd be totally screwed by crits is if you put all your weapons in the same hit location.

That's like saying "ATMs should get 20 damage/missile, but it's not OP because you need to get locks", ignoring what happens when you get the lock.

The thing is that it's still gonna screw people, right now it's already screwing people with stripped armor by knocking components off, as it was seemingly meant to be. And unlike MG, the LBXs actually do have the capacity to strip off a lot of armor, so yeah really really OP.

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 03:08 AM, said:

again thats why mechs need more internal structure. to make nuking entire components more difficult and make crits more productive.

The thing is we don't need to do that, you have not given enough good reason to do that. So what if components are supposed to be tougher? Do we really need that distinction? Is that trivial and petty matter even worth tipping the balance over?

Even if you didn't nuked the component, you nuked the equipment away, so it's borderline useless other than a buffer for your CT or any adjacent component. That's like stripping an atlas off it's weapons, making it's extreme durability pointless -- so what if you get to live longer? You won't be contributing damage anymore anyways. You could probably get locks, or cap, but other than that you're dead weight. You are putting people off the fight much faster, even if you're not killing them, they're effectively dead and you "killed" them faster.

And then we include other less-critting weapon, increasing the structure globally just for the sake of that minor feature of LBXs being able to disable mech faster via equipment critting, it would also needlessly increase the TTK of other weapons. Not only buffing LBXs, but pretty much indirectly nerfing every other weapons undeservedly.

So even if your idea fixes critting, which it doesn't, it makes more problems than it solves.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 July 2017 - 03:42 AM.

[Khobai]

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The thing is that it's still gonna screw people, right now it's already screwing people with stripped armor by knocking components off, as it was seemingly meant to be. And unlike MG, the LBXs actually do have the capacity to strip off a lot of armor, so yeah really really OP.

not really. people will actually survive longer due to having more internal structure.

instead of having your components completely destroyed and all your weapons gone, your components will still be intact due to the increased internal structure and only some of your weapons will be gone.

You will be contributing more damage with partial weapons destroyed than all your weapons destroyed.

LBX should be a little better at critting components but it will hardly be anywhere near the level where it instantly kills weapons like youre exaggerating.

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The thing is we don't need to do that, you have not given enough good reason to do that. So what if components are supposed to be tougher? Do we really need that distinction? Is that trivial and petty matter even worth tipping the balance over?

I have given a good enough reason. To make critical hits more viable.

Yes we really need that distinction. Some weapons like LBX will never be good at punching through armor. They will always be inferior to slug autocannons. The best way to make LBX viable and give it a powerful role in the game is to make critical hits viable.

And its hardly trivial. Critseeking was a HUGE part of battletech. And it should be equally important in MWO.

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And then we include other less-critting weapon, increasing the structure globally just for the sake of that minor feature of LBXs

Actually TTK being too low in general is the main for increasing internal structure. Making crits matter more is just a bonus. It addresses multiple issues at the same time.

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So even if your idea fixes critting, which it doesn't, it makes more problems than it solves.

It does fix it. The #1 reason crits dont matter now is purely due to lack of internal structure. Increasing internal structure absolutely fixes the problem.

Edited by Khobai, 11 July 2017 - 04:01 AM.

[Valhallan]

There is no need to introduce TAC's to make crit seeking weapons have a use (i would actually support it, but well so many loathe RNG for some reason). An easy solution is to make critting more meaningful, currently with the damage being slung about combined with the increased component health (in BT equipment had 1 health as base, sure im ok with bigger weapons getting more hp since they lost their advantage from TT, but all items have a lot more hp than standard, small items have ridiculously too much hp for their size). A section is likely to get blown off before any meaningful critting occurs unless someone was MG-ing only because of cooldowns.

So there are 2 ways to go about this, one is to globally nerf component health, this way components are far more likely to break before a section vaporizes (the fact that a las vomit generally won't break a single component, except maybe gauss, before vaporizing a section is just wrong), the other is as khobai stated globally boosting internal structure hp, to say = armor and convert armor quarks and such from the trees etc. into structure quarks, that way the increased time at the stage where crits can occur gives the weapons enough time to do their thing, making these weapons inferior capabilities at the first half (armor stripping) somewhat acceptable in exchange for their greater efficacy in the second half. Does this structure buff "nerf" all other weapons? yea, but aside from compensating certain ammo weapons with more ammo (they all really should be normalized at 200 base already anyway) what's the problem? the nerf is uniform anyway. OFC both can also be used at the same time to lessen the shift in either side alone.

Edited by Valhallan, 11 July 2017 - 04:27 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

not really. people will actually survive longer due to having more internal structure.

Not gonna matter if they couldn't even shoot back otherwise. They're effectively dead anyways.

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

instead of having your components completely destroyed and all your weapons gone, your components will still be intact due to the increased internal structure and only some of your weapons will be gone.

You will be contributing more damage with partial weapons destroyed than all your weapons destroyed.

If the LBXs could knock off most weapons, whose to say it wouldn't knock off the rest? And wouldn't that make LBXs just top pick, cause it can effectively negate the rest of the structure of the mech, and go straight to neuter?

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

LBX should be a little better at critting components but it will hardly be anywhere near the level where it instantly kills weapons like youre exaggerating.

It does, and it's actually pretty okay considering, of course competing with UACs with a bit more pin-point damage, critting isn't that of a good field to excel.

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

I have given a good enough reason. To make critical hits more viable.

No you didn't. Nuking components are actually pretty okay, all you wanted to do is make a distinction between crits to equipment and crit to component. Ultimately moot.

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

Yes we really need that distinction. Some weapons like LBX will never be good at punching through armor. They will always be inferior to slug autocannons. The best way to make LBX viable and give it a powerful role in the game is to make critical hits viable.

No, we don't need that distinction. We can just improve LBX base damage so it can actually participate in stripping armor, like a normal shotgun in first-person shooter. No it's not the best way, because critting is just a minor part of the game, stripping them bare plays a larger part. But okay you want it to be a large part too no? But does it really need to be?

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

And its hardly trivial. Critseeking was a HUGE part of battletech. And it should be equally important in MWO.

This is not BT TT, this is MWO, there's a lot of difference between playstyles, and direct translations won't necessarily help with balance. No it shouldn't be equally important, as there are different mechanics between BT TT and MWO, TT is a strategy turn-based game, MWO is FPS.

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

Actually TTK being too low in general is the main for increasing internal structure. Making crits matter more is just a bonus. It addresses multiple issues at the same time.

Dafuq? You're slipping in "TTK being too low" now? Without justification even?

Low TTK is just the symptom of the problem made by pin-point shooting, the same reason why ppfld builds such as gauss-ppc could easily kill, because they can just isolate components and kill mechs. You can just point so much lasers on one spot till your enemy is dead, while in BT the places you hit are random.

Increasing structure is just power-creep. You wanna fix TTK and go back to roots TTK? Remove the pin-point aim.

Khobai, on 11 July 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

It does fix it. The #1 reason crits dont matter now is purely due to lack of internal structure. Increasing internal structure absolutely fixes the problem.

Crits kind of do matter, even if it doesn't knock off equipment, it does aggravate the component. No it doesn't fix it, it just adds another headache to the balancing act, creates an unneeded distinction between component crit and equipment, and power-creeps the game.

No. Just no.

[Ced Riggs]

Anyone who has been lit up by a 4 MG Viper after being back-armor stripped can tell you how useless MGs really aren't.

[Skanderborg]

Give it a damage boost , perhaps 1.2 or so damage per pellet to give it an edge over AC's. This would increase its short range capability and give it a niche while AC's still retain their accuracy and pin point damage.

[El Bandito]

I have been asking for LBX pellet damage buff since... wow, 2013. https://mwomercs.com...bx-ac10-viable/

Let's make it happen, people.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 July 2017 - 06:58 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

El Bandito, on 11 July 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

I have been asking for LBX pellet damage buff since... at least 2015.




Let's make it happen, people.

You should try brutal doom.