22 replies to this topic

[Shifty McSwift]

The "HP" of each weapon, or how much damage it can take before destroyed. Lets discuss.

Ok so currently the health rates are quite high, I mean considering what an AC2 is supposed to be and be capable of, the fact a weapon can survive a hit by one is pretty amazing. Some weapons are so tough they can take a hit from an AC10 and keep firing unimpaired.

But we all know bringing reality into it is crazy sauce, so lets work in the realms of balance, what is the purpose of weapon health? To distinguish between the bigger guns and give them a level of relative toughness compared to their consistency of being hit? And what kind of "base health" should a weapon start with? If an AC2 crit could destroy an exposed basic weapon outright (i.e giving basic weapons some 3 health), would it "break the game" in having our weapons blow up too often?

And also to me it seems like weapon health is the perfect place to work with overheating penalties, particularly for "overfiring" weapons. Imagine if ghost heat worked to deal heat damage to the weapons that are "over fired", or if overheating beyond a threshold, put your weapons health at risk?

And imagine if weapon health could be linked to weapon reliability, for example with a half damaged laser losing damage, or a damaged UAC jamming more frequently etc etc.

What are everyone elses thoughts on this and on weapon health in general. Looking at it a clan ac20 can survive a direct hit by an ac10 and an ac 5 and still function without issue, is that fine? To me it seems high.

[Khobai]

Quote

Looking at it a clan ac20 can survive a direct hit by an ac10 and an ac 5 and still function without issue, is that fine? To me it seems high

Well as an example compare an AC20 to an AC5. An AC20 takes up 10 crit slots while an AC5 only takes up 4 crit slots. The AC20 is far more likely to suffer critical hits because it takes up more crit slots. So it makes perfect sense for it to have a lot more health

There should be a direct correlation between the number of crit slots a weapon takes up and the amount of health a weapon has.

I think there should be a straight formula for weapon health. Something like 5+(# crit slots*2) = weapon health

so a weapon that takes up 1 crit slot would have 7 health
5 crit slots would have 15 health
10 crit slots would have 25 health
etc...

And clan weapons would use the same formula but get a multiplier of like x0.7 to determining the health of clan weapons. So all clan weapons would effectively get 30% less health.

Edited by Khobai, 13 July 2017 - 12:53 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Khobai, on 13 July 2017 - 12:41 AM, said:

An AC20 takes up 10 crit slots while an AC5 only takes up 4 crit slots

The AC20 is more likely to get suffer critical hits because it takes up more crit slots so it makes perfect sense for it to have more health

There should be a direct correlation between the number of crit slots a weapon takes up and the amount of health a weapon has.

Yep, I did mention the need for bigger weapons needing more health by virtue of them getting hit more often, in part it is one of the main reasons to have health values in numbers like that.

Buuuut, that being said, if the single slot weapons base health rates were lower, the AC20s and the like could come down in health logically. I mean my AC20 is the most commonly destroyed weapon in my arsenal, for two reasons, one because it is so big and two because it is in my side torso which is a popular target.

The destruction of my arm guns is exceedingly rare without my arms being destroyed entirely, possibly because my arms are such rare targets and possible because the weapon health is too high or the slots are too small. In either case destruction of smaller weapons in game is seemingly very rare, it might make things interesting to see rates come down here.

[Khobai]

Quote

Buuuut, that being said, if the single slot weapons base health rates were lower, the AC20s and the like could come down in health logically. I mean my AC20 is the most commonly destroyed weapon in my arsenal, for two reasons, one because it is so big and two because it is in my side torso which is a popular target.

why should it go down in health if its the most commonly destroyed weapon? seems like it should go up in health.

the most commonly destroyed weapons should be single crit slot weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 13 July 2017 - 01:01 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Khobai, on 13 July 2017 - 01:00 AM, said:

why should it go down in health if its the most commonly destroyed weapon? seems like it should go up in health.

the most commonly destroyed weapons should be single crit slot weapons.

Yeah but they aren't getting destroyed in many cases, I wasn't suggesting the AC20 health rate would come down alone, and I wasn't saying that my AC20 dies all the time, just that it is the most common weapon destroyed in my arsenal, which I think is because of its crit space rather than its health anyway.

The relative comparative nature ends up with AC20 and big guns being the most commonly destroyed weapons, and the little more fragile guns almost never being destroyed through direct damage, part of my discussion is around the nature of how much health each weapon "should" really have, if it only took one "hit" from most weapons to kill these smaller guns they would certainly be destroyed more often, which might be a good or bad thing, depending on the intent/ideals behind the mechanics.

The fact we almost never see smaller weapons destroyed makes it feel like the mechanic isn't being utilised as much as it could be.

[El Bandito]

Shifty McSwift, on 13 July 2017 - 01:28 AM, said:

The fact we almost never see smaller weapons destroyed makes it feel like the mechanic isn't being utilised as much as it could be.

They have to get hit in the first place. With DHS crit padding that is harder than you think.

[Shifty McSwift]

I mean, perhaps that is indication that AC20 health is too low to compensate its size, if it is so much easier to kill than other weapons, it is disadvantageous to take one in ways, or are AC20s supposed to be easier to destroy like that?

El Bandito, on 13 July 2017 - 01:45 AM, said:

They have to get hit in the first place. With DHS crit padding that is harder than you think.

True, perhaps it goes further to all equipment health, I mean what is a heat sink made out of, how tough would it be too?

[zeves]

Isnt it abit late for this? we have been playing for 5years? without giving to many ***** about weapon health, apart from the gauss.
it seems unnecessary to look into it at this point. its quite rare that weapons noticeably get destroyed before their attatched part and that is kind of fine for me really, the only way i would change it is maby make lbxes as a kind of disabling weapon, takeing out guns easier than other weapons.

[Shifty McSwift]

zeves, on 13 July 2017 - 02:23 AM, said:

Isnt it abit late for this?

Well that is a subjective sentiment.

I would say no. You might say yes. It could also depend how new to the game one is.

I mean that could also be said about most things in game too. Isn't it a bit late to add IS uac variants? They have been locked to UAC five for some 5 years, its what people are used to... Etc etc.

[Greyhart]

Of course when I read the title I had an entirely different idea as to what it was about.

Weapon health and critical hits are really hidden in the game. Frankly I am aware that weapons have health and that you can pad with heatsinks but really it is not a consideration.

How about (with changes to the UI)

Each crit space has a set health (for this example lets call it 5 hp)
Weapons can increase/decrease this but the vast majority have health the same as the crit slots.

Once armour is striped damage is done equally between each crit slot. You'd need to put a health bar somewhere either on the paperdoll or next to the weapon.

As a weapon gets more damaged its cooldown increases.

You then have critical hits (based on weapon causing the damage) that deal added damage to the weapon.

Heat damage could then be directed at weapons, heatsinks and could also be weighted towards heat intensive weapons.

[El Bandito]

Shifty McSwift, on 13 July 2017 - 02:14 AM, said:

True, perhaps it goes further to all equipment health, I mean what is a heat sink made out of, how tough would it be too?

In the novels, heatsinks were very easy to rupture, once armor is breached. Therefore, giving them less health than what they have now is not far fetched.

Sarna states that SHS is made out of graphite, while DHS is made out of crystalline polymer--which is more durable than graphite. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heat_Sink

Edited by El Bandito, 13 July 2017 - 04:00 AM.

[Greyhart]

I am right in thinking that crits and weapon destruction are all based on random dice rolls.

Where is the uproar that we get when ever someone suggests a cone of fire. Why aren't the leet players complaining about this mechanic that takes away skillz

[Shifty McSwift]

El Bandito, on 13 July 2017 - 03:57 AM, said:

In the novels, heatsinks were very easy to rupture, once armor is breached. Therefore, giving them less health than what they have now is not far fetched.

Sarna states that SHS is made out of graphite, while DHS is made out of crystalline polymer--which is more durable than graphite. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heat_Sink

Hmm, would the sink actually take up the kind of space they represent too? Maybe if the chance to be hit was a variable for items, with heatsinks basically taking less critical slot space than they represent, and smaller guns taking up more when it comes to the calculations of what is hit in a particular shot.

Or maybe just greatly reducing the chances for heatsinks to be hit by comparison to weapons, considering they are less exposed than weapons (or "hidden" further within the structure), might help with that idea of padding crits with sinks.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 13 July 2017 - 05:49 AM.

[Natred]

3 or 4 patches ago they nerfed hp of heatsinks and weapons..

[MechaBattler]

Didn't they already change weapon HP because Clan weapons were getting crit less often thanks to both less slots and more DHS padding? They gave the bulkier IS weapons more HP. And nerfed single slot weapon HP much to the chagrin of SRM brawlers. An IS AC20 should have more health. But it still is more likely to be crit because of it's size. A fair trade off.

But there is always room for improvement. I wouldn't be against an additional increase in weapon HP. It would increase TTK with the weapons soaking up damages.

I also like the idea of damage to weapons for overheating.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

I am right in thinking that crits and weapon destruction are all based on random dice rolls.

Where is the uproar that we get when ever someone suggests a cone of fire. Why aren't the leet players complaining about this mechanic that takes away skillz

Generally, it's because they're obliterating most sections of a 'Mech before crits really do anything significant, as leet players are going to fire large amounts of concentrated damage at once. Who cares how much equipment there is when the second good shot destroys all of it, crits or no crits? Bonus: Since a crit adds structure damage now, most crits simply accelerate destroying everything at once.

[Obadiah333]

I'd like to compare the Clan Gauss rifle to another weapon, but the only thing I can find matching its durability is a balsa wood toothpick.

[Brain Cancer]

Gauss are the most fragile weapon in the game, but that's part of the whole "I'm an explosive bomb waiting to be lit" thing with it's capacitors. Clantech ones are the most fragile of the fragile, because Paul wanted 1:1 balance with IS tech and that was an easy way to "balance" it.

[Athom83]

Khobai, on 13 July 2017 - 12:41 AM, said:

Well as an example compare an AC20 to an AC5. An AC20 takes up 10 crit slots while an AC5 only takes up 4 crit slots. The AC20 is far more likely to suffer critical hits because it takes up more crit slots. So it makes perfect sense for it to have a lot more health
There should be a direct correlation between the number of crit slots a weapon takes up and the amount of health a weapon has.
I think there should be a straight formula for weapon health. Something like 5+(# crit slots*2) = weapon health
so a weapon that takes up 1 crit slot would have 7 health
5 crit slots would have 15 health
10 crit slots would have 25 health
etc...

However, tonnage compared to crit slots should also be taken into account. An AC/2 is only 1 slot yet is 6 tons. Compare that to a LRM 15 which is 7 tons but 3 crits. The AC/2 is far more dense than the LRM 15 and would reasonably have more health, yet by your math it would have less.

[Koniving]

Shifty McSwift, on 13 July 2017 - 12:36 AM, said:

But we all know bringing reality into it is crazy sauce, so lets work in the realms of balance, what is the purpose of weapon health? To distinguish between the bigger guns and give them a level of relative toughness compared to their consistency of being hit? And what kind of "base health" should a weapon start with? If an AC2 crit could destroy an exposed basic weapon outright (i.e giving basic weapons some 3 health), would it "break the game" in having our weapons blow up too often?

And also to me it seems like weapon health is the perfect place to work with overheating penalties, particularly for "overfiring" weapons. Imagine if ghost heat worked to deal heat damage to the weapons that are "over fired", or if overheating beyond a threshold, put your weapons health at risk?

And imagine if weapon health could be linked to weapon reliability, for example with a half damaged laser losing damage, or a damaged UAC jamming more frequently etc etc.

Similar topics have been hit on in the hypothetical (if we made a BT Simulator discussion) thread.
Among them:

• A three stage heat system
  
  • (individual Weapon/equipment heat with overheating instead of a 'cooldown' bar; if weapon overheats it stops functioning for a length of time, weapons that ride high heat tend to jam/malfunction. Covers lore based stuff like Valkyrie's stomach-mounted LRM-10, Goliath's overheating/jamming machine guns, etc. Also basic lore rules, such as burst fire MGs [being able to get 2 to 3 times the damage by firing them in bursts, as a way of riding their overheat bar. Also allows MGs to be a little faster in delivering damage at the cost that they can't fire constantly.)
    
  • (Second stage is Mech/Engine threshold, locked at 30 units. Mech/Engine threshold is 'half' affected by weapon/equipment heat, directly affected by movement and jumpjet heat generation, and directly affected by environmental temperatures and hazards (i.e. raging fires, freezing waters, etc.))
    
  • (Third stage is heatsink threshold, determining the limit of heatsinks by what they can absorb and dissipate. Heatsinks will instantly pull in half of weapon and equipment heat at the same time the mech threshold does. The fuller the heatsink threshold is, however, the slower it will pull any 'excess' heat from the mech threshold until it slows down to a crawl. Exceeding the heatsink threshold can have detrimental effects on coolant levels [reducing heatsink effectiveness temporarily, using a coolant truck can refill it] to permanently [need to replace heatsinks when possible outside of battle; which given the format described could be after several battles before being able to get back to repair).
• Weapon effectiveness directly affected by health/heat.
  
• A sub-hitbox system, allowing for 'direct' or 'intended' crits and sub-component destruction (blast off enemy arms at the hands or elbows, directly aim for weapon systems to try and disable them).
  
  • Said sub hitbox system would divide up armor points to locations via percentages, so destroying one part of the side torso would not destroy the whole side torso.
    
  • This negates the effectiveness of alpha strikes (excessive overkill to a spot, need many shots to destroy an ST while several individual weapons in succession would get the job much easier and without as much waste).
    
  • Certain weapons intended to have PPFLD, such as the PPC and the Gauss Rifle, can be given different behaviors so as to not be as wasteful with their damage. PPCs can spread it a bit. Gauss Rifle can as it does in lore, punch holes directly through mechs and keep going (where it will then be able to hit a second mech or potentially a third, depending on how much damage gets 'used' on its course).
• Some info on canonical weapon variants by brand name and ways to fill in the gaps and make the differences more interesting.