37 replies to this topic

[Red Shrike]

Yellonet, on 16 July 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

Well, some of my latest thread shows that lots of people here feel that it's great game design to have some maps that completely sucks for certain builds/mechs.

As long as that mentality remains we won't have well balanced maps.

Thing is, if you design maps with specifically designed areas for specific builds (ie. long lanes for sniper, tight areas for brawlers, etc. Kinda like World of Tanks), people will always go to the area rated for their type of build.
So when a guy comes roling in with a mech that carries regular PPCs and an SRM, he'll be at a distinct disadvantage in both the sniper part and the brawl part of the map, whereas a mech with more PPCs and no SRM, or a mech with no PPCs and more SRMs will have the upper hand.
Personally, I believe Battletech is not a place where boating should be the endgoal. Then again, gamelogic dictates that there is no such thing as overkill.

Imperius, on 16 July 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

I disagree, there really is no brawling in the game. Support is the occasional potato with LRM's who shoots them into the side of mountains. Lights constantly tell me their job is not to scout and pick off the wounded.

Well, I guess you're right, people prefer to poke at long range because they're scared of getting shot at, same like World of Tanks. While there is brawling, most people seem hesitant to do so because it usually means wading through incoming fire from those long range chickens. I'd love a good brawl in my Atlas if it didn't mean ending up the target of focus fire all the time.
Well, what is there really in the way of scouting? You have crazy longer render ranges and spotting ranges. Scouting like in World of Tanks simply doesn't work because sniping doesn't require a scout when the target is already in line of sight. You'd be left with scouting behind buildings and terrain features to get those locks for the LRMs, but as you said, the lurmer is a potato, not to mention LRMs are useless to the point that boating them is a waste of a good mech.

[Wintersdark]

Imperius, on 16 July 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

I disagree, there really is no brawling in the game. Support is the occasional potato with LRM's who shoots them into the side of mountains. Lights constantly tell me their job is not to scout and pick off the wounded.

wat? There's no brawling? Are you high?

I've a lot of pure brawling Mechs, they perform extremely well, and as they're incapable of dealing damage at range, obviously there's some brawling. And the Scorch that go in my face in the last match I played certainly demonstrated that other people brawl too. I see brawling app the time. And sniping, poke trading, herfing lurms, striking, all sorts of stuff.

Or, is what you're saying really just "I feel there ought to be more brawling than their currently is, but I feel I cannot make my point without grossly over exaggerating it."

*Sighs*

[Imperius]

Wintersdark, on 16 July 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

wat? There's no brawling? Are you high?

I've a lot of pure brawling Mechs, they perform extremely well, and as they're incapable of dealing damage at range, obviously there's some brawling. And the Scorch that go in my face in the last match I played certainly demonstrated that other people brawl too. I see brawling app the time. And sniping, poke trading, herfing lurms, striking, all sorts of stuff.

Or, is what you're saying really just "I feel there ought to be more brawling than their currently is, but I feel I cannot make my point without grossly over exaggerating it."

*Sighs*

Do you use those in comp?

[Wintersdark]

Imperius, on 16 July 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

Do you use those in comp?

As I don't play in comp, no. But you didn't say "there is no brawling in comp." That's a totally different prospect, and I wouldn't have commented had you made that distinction.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Coordination and total weight seem to be the biggest influences on brawling. One dimensional maps sound awful (see invasion maps).

[Imperius]

Wintersdark, on 16 July 2017 - 01:18 PM, said:

As I don't play in comp, no. But you didn't say "there is no brawling in comp." That's a totally different prospect, and I wouldn't have commented had you made that distinction.

I don't play comp either, but it does determine what's viable over what works against potatoes. It was a legitimate question.

[Wintersdark]

Imperius, on 16 July 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

I don't play comp either, but it does determine what's viable over what works against potatoes. It was a legitimate question.

more accurately, it determines what's optimal as an organized team strategy. What's viable against random players - even skilled random players - is very much a different question.

[Imperius]

Just saying the game would have more variety if it was set up to choose mech for map and maps were more in control of play styles.

Edited by Imperius, 16 July 2017 - 01:32 PM.

[Red Shrike]

Imperius, on 16 July 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Just saying the game would have more variety if it was set up to choose mech for map and maps were more in control of play styles.

Not really, everyone would simply pick their long range boats for polar and their shorter range boats for things like Canyon.

[Imperius]

Red Shrike, on 16 July 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

Not really, everyone would simply pick their long range boats for polar and their shorter range boats for things like Canyon.

I use long rang on both maps...

[Wintersdark]

Imperius, on 16 July 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

Just saying the game would have more variety if it was set up to choose mech for map and maps were more in control of play styles.

Yeah, this has been asked for here and there from.day one, and my response today is the same as it's always been:

1)

Red Shrike, on 16 July 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

Not really, everyone would simply pick their long range boats for polar and their shorter range boats for things like Canyon.

. Yup. We'd just see MORE lurms on PH, etc etc.

2) the matchmaker would have zero control over the Mechs taken into a battle. We'd have 12 assaults vs 12 mediums and lights in skirmish, for example. At least the mm tries to make reasonably mixed teams currently.

[Red Shrike]

Imperius, on 16 July 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

I use long rang on both maps...

But what about long range and short range?

[Imperius]

Red Shrike, on 16 July 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

But what about long range and short range?

That's my point I don't ever use short range.

[Appuagab]

Tarl Cabot, on 16 July 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

Has PGI map creation changed any?

http://www.pcgamer.c...tion-to-detail/

Ew. That's so disturbingly sad. All my multiplayer gaming experience just flashed before my eyes... Capping routes and genrooms in Tribes: Ascend... Circled arenas with secret spots in Quake-like shooters... Lanes and jungles of MOBAs... Secret routes to escape with stolen chest of gold in Pirates, Viking and Knights 2...

And then MWO... All the citadel facehugging on River City... Gоatse on old Terra Therma... Facehugging of Goаtse rock on Viridian Bog... Autopilot to the middle of Manifold... Bottleneck invasion maps... Climbing on the mountain on Alpine through the tiny, just as vertical as everything else, but still passable somehow track of snow... Friendly mechs blocking your way between houses on Frozen City...

Now I understand why leveldesign of MWO is so fundamentally bad. They just have absolutely no idea about how maps in multiplayer games work. What a shame.

Edited by Appuagab, 16 July 2017 - 03:15 PM.

[Deathlike]

Imperius, on 16 July 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

Do you use those in comp?

Brawling is done in comp a lot, but it has to be done properly and not haphazardly.


Maps like Alpine are a symptom of map design problems.... where no matter how long it takes for PGI to move spawns (like, every 365 days, instead of the usual 60 to 90), they don't know how to make use of the map... primarily skewing for aesthetics over playability.

Modes however are what causes most of the map not being used, or being poorly designed... like Domination of Crimson Strait. Putting the circle in a super highly favorable spot for one side is not what would be called "fair" in terms of balance. It's one thing to have asymmetric maps... it's another to not have any clue to positioning (a thing highly valued in comp play) dictates how one approaches or not approaches an area.

Besides, we're supposed to have moar dry spells in mapmaking (a year and count currently) like we had when UI 2.0 debuted. You know.... because we obviously have "enough maps".

[Imperius]

Deathlike, on 16 July 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

Brawling is done in comp a lot, but it has to be done properly and not haphazardly.


Maps like Alpine are a symptom of map design problems.... where no matter how long it takes for PGI to move spawns (like, every 365 days, instead of the usual 60 to 90), they don't know how to make use of the map... primarily skewing for aesthetics over playability.

Modes however are what causes most of the map not being used, or being poorly designed... like Domination of Crimson Strait. Putting the circle in a super highly favorable spot for one side is not what would be called "fair" in terms of balance. It's one thing to have asymmetric maps... it's another to not have any clue to positioning (a thing highly valued in comp play) dictates how one approaches or not approaches an area.

Besides, we're supposed to have moar dry spells in mapmaking (a year and count currently) like we had when UI 2.0 debuted. You know.... because we obviously have "enough maps".

Generally though you can avoid brawling correct? I'm legitimately asking because I don't play MWO much anymore for many reasons I'm tired of bringing up at this point. Let alone ever thought about taking it serious because said problems never get addressed.

STILL WAITING FOR COLOR BLIND SUPPORTED PAPER DOLL.

[Deathlike]

Imperius, on 16 July 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

Generally though you can avoid brawling correct? I'm legitimately asking because I don't play MWO much anymore for many reasons I'm tired of bringing up at this point. Let alone ever thought about taking it serious because said problems never get addressed.

STILL WAITING FOR COLOR BLIND SUPPORTED PAPER DOLL.

You can, but that requires a level of skill most players do not have (we're talking about 80+% that don't know how to kite properly).

HTAL is Lostech. The List of Lostech is neverending.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 July 2017 - 07:05 PM.

[Imperius]

Deathlike, on 16 July 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

You can, but that requires a level of skill most players do not have (we're talking about 80+% that don't know how to kite properly).

HTAL is Lostech. The List of Lostech is neverending.

I'm aware of the soak damage twist and rotate out and switch the front line tactic. (Basic seals training essentially) I'm just saying as a whole it's just easier and more safe to just poke snipe and flank.