67 replies to this topic

[Chuck B]

I have to ask/wonder. Did PGI listen to anything we said on the PTS? Rac's are pretty much the same as they were at the end of the PTS. They got a very minor damage boost to .72 per round for the Rac2 and 1.365 for the Rac 5. They have the same heat and for everything I've seem will still build up heat and Jam during spin up. while I found them use-able, I found the UAC 10 better for over all DPS.</p>

[FunkyT]

I think the only aspect they confirmed to have changed was the ghost heat bug that killed the weapon on PTS. Unfortunately, they didn't reveal anything else, as far as I know.

So until tuesday, we won't know the ghost heat limits for RACs, if it will be possible to pair 2x RAC5 with 2x RAC2 without ghost heat. I could imagine that 4x RAC5 will not be possible without ghost heat, which might otherwise be pretty strong.

It would be some heavy investment in terms of tonnage and space, leaving pretty much no room for backup weapons and it would only be possible on the King Crab and Mauler (and the Nightstar later). But without ghost heat you would likely be able to fire your ~4secs of guaranteed dakka before the jam bar hits red. Which would translate to 4x 10dps x 4secs, meaning ~160damage within 4 seconds. Sounds painful to me.

So yeah, guess we gotta wait and see.

[The6thMessenger]

I really wish PGI just ditched the god damn random maximum damage, and balanced around 100% jam on filled jam bar. Like we need even more risk when we're already risking so much staring our enemies to death.

[CanadianCyrus]

10 Damage per second on the RAC5, so 2xRAC5 (looking at you ENF-5P) is a not too shabby 20 DPS. You definitely don't want to stare at a mech firing RACs at you for very long.

[The6thMessenger]

Funzo, on 15 July 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

10 Damage per second on the RAC5, so 2xRAC5 (looking at you ENF-5P) is a not too shabby 20 DPS. You definitely don't want to stare at a mech firing RACs at you for very long.

The thing is that, the RAC user generally wouldn't be staring for that long anyways.

[davoodoo]

Funzo, on 15 July 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

10 Damage per second on the RAC5, so 2xRAC5 (looking at you ENF-5P) is a not too shabby 20 DPS. You definitely don't want to stare at a mech firing RACs at you for very long.

I wouldnt be so cheerful.

No idea how long jam bar is and how long will it unjam.

10 burst dps will be cool, but then uac10 already had 20 burst dps...

[The6thMessenger]

davoodoo, on 15 July 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

I wouldnt be so cheerful.

No idea how long jam bar is and how long will it unjam.

10 burst dps will be cool, but then uac10 already had 20 burst dps...

Well to be fair, the UAC10 is 13 tons vs RAC5 is 10 tons.

[davoodoo]

The6thMessenger, on 15 July 2017 - 04:03 AM, said:

Well to be fair, the UAC10 is 13 tons vs RAC5 is 10 tons.

uac5 10 burst dps, 9 tons.
lpl 10 burst dps, 7 tons.

I need to know sustained cause this statistic alone can skew perception quite nicely...

Edited by davoodoo, 15 July 2017 - 04:09 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

davoodoo, on 15 July 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:

uac5 10 burst dps, 9 tons.
lpl 10 burst dps, 7 tons.

I need to know sustained cause this statistic alone can skew perception quite nicely...

Why would you even compare laser to AC? They have different **** to do? What on terra is wrong with you?

Also, previous PTS data shows that it has minimum of 36 shots, or 48.645 damage out minimum vs 10 of the LPL. 2.7025 damage/heat RAC, vs 1.428571428571429 damage/heat lpl.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 15 July 2017 - 05:11 AM.

[Khobai]

RACs are still too RNG. Its literally like playing DPS roulette. If the weapon jams prematurely you lose.

Its completely wrong that an RAC used in a responsible way (i.e. not running the bar into the red) still does less DPS than an AC5. Why?!

Quote

No idea how long jam bar is and how long will it unjam.

It takes 1 second to spool up, can fire for 4 seconds before turning red, and it takes 10 seconds to dissipate

So an RAC5 thats used responsibly only does about 2.9 dps... which is less than the 3 dps an AC5 can do.

It doesnt make any sense that youre punished for being responsible with the weapon and rewarded for being both irresponsible AND lucky with the weapon. Literally the best way to use the RAC is just to hold down fire and pray it doesnt jam early, there is no point in even trying to practice restraint with the jam bar, because you just get punished for that.

Edited by Khobai, 15 July 2017 - 05:18 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

RACs are still too RNG. Its literally like playing DPS roulette. If the weapon jams prematurely you lose.

Its completely wrong that an RAC used in a responsible way (i.e. not running the bar into the red) still does less DPS than an AC5. Why?!

Yeah i know. RAC2 is realistically just even worse than AC5.

[El Bandito]

RACs also have CoF.

[davoodoo]

The6thMessenger, on 15 July 2017 - 05:08 AM, said:

Why would you even compare laser to AC? They have different **** to do? What on terra is wrong with you?

Also, previous PTS data shows that it has minimum of 36 shots, or 48.645 damage out minimum vs 10 of the LPL. 2.7025 damage/heat RAC, vs 1.428571428571429 damage/heat lpl.

Because it shows how deceptive burst dps stat is...

Yeah and in previous pts data, quite a few stats were different, if it comes out and it indeed fires 36 shots before jamming, sure cool, but saying that it will when you have no idea is just stupid.

oh and uac5 have 3.33 dmg/heat so rac is still hot as ****.

Edited by davoodoo, 15 July 2017 - 05:19 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

El Bandito, on 15 July 2017 - 05:16 AM, said:

RACs also have CoF.

davoodoo, on 15 July 2017 - 05:16 AM, said:

Because it shows how deceptive burst dps stat is...

You know what else is different? Roles? RACs are supposed to be for a really idiotically long deathly stare, while LPLs are for mid-ranged peekaboos, the two are not equivalent. Would be valid if you just realize that, while the LPL does 10 damage UNDER 0.67, the RAC can do said damage per second for OVER 4s.

You can't just equate the two.

davoodoo, on 15 July 2017 - 05:16 AM, said:

Yeah and in previous pts data, quite a few stats were different, if it comes out and it indeed fires 36 shots before jamming, sure cool, but saying that it will when you have no idea is just stupid.

Wrong, I have an idea.

Am i sure? Pretty sure.

Am i correct? not yet, maybe even not.

But having said that, with little change from the PTS, and actually having done the god damn math and testing, we have no good reason to think otherwise.

davoodoo, on 15 July 2017 - 05:16 AM, said:

oh and uac5 have 3.33 dmg/heat so rac is still hot as ****.

Really? UAC5 has better damage/heat, therefore LPL is a valid weapon to compare with the RAC5? Really?

Mental gymnastics, level Olympics. You should get a medal, and a heroes' welcome.

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

It takes 1 second to spool up, can fire for 4 seconds before turning red, and it takes 10 seconds to dissipate

So an RAC5 thats used responsibly only does about 2.9 dps... which is less than the 3 dps an AC5 can do.

It doesnt make any sense that youre punished for being responsible with the weapon and rewarded for being both irresponsible AND lucky with the weapon. Literally the best way to use the RAC is just to hold down fire and pray it doesnt jam early, there is no point in even trying to practice restraint with the jam bar, because you just get punished for that.

Yes, really really really really really really stupid, they should'nt have tried to reinvent the god damn barrel-cluster-assembly. Jesus ******* christ, there's already an archetype that works so well.

PGI really should just do this:

The6thMessenger, on 02 July 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

Quote

General Changes:

- RACs Jam 100% when Jam Meter is filled.
- RACs do not fill Jam Meter while spinning, only while shooting.
- RACs Jam Meter does not go down until Spin-Down is achieved.
- Always during operation, the weapon generate heat. Be it during spin-up, spin-down, or firing, it will generate heat. Like Stealth Armor.

Quote

RAC2:

Damage/shot: 0.80
Projectile Speed: 2000
Shots/Sec: 10.00
Burst DPS: 8.00
Total Damage/Burst: 40
Total Shots/Burst: 50
Spin-Up Time: 0.50s
Spin-Down Time: 0.50s
Burst Duration: 5.00s
Jam Dissipation: 4.00s
Jam Duration: 4.00s
EDPS: 4.00

Quote

RAC5:

Damage/shot: 1.25
Projectile Speed: 1650
Shots/Sec: 8.00
Burst DPS: 10.00
Total Damage/Burst: 50
Total Shots/burst: 40
Spin-Up Time: 0.50s
Spin-Down Time: 0.50s
Burst Duration: 5.00s
Jam Dissipation: 4.00s
Jam Duration: 4.00s
EDPS: 5.00

To define our new values, lets start:

EDPS = Effective DPS, the dps of the weapon once the Jam sequence is taken account.
Burst Duration = How long can the weapon shoot continuously before Jamming.
Jam Duration = How long the weapon cannot be fired.
Jam Dissipation = How long the meter is cleared at full - that means if the gauge is completely filled and at some form of magic does not jam, it would take 4.0s for the meter to be cleared.

The purpose of Jam Dissipation is to illustrate how fast the gauge is cleared. And with the Burst Duration at 5s, but the Jam Dissipation at 4.0s - WTF? The6thMessenger? Wouldn't that mean they could just not fill the jam meter completely, let it dissipate a few and then shoot again?

Well supposed that we only used up 2.5s or half of our total damage/burst, doing 20 for the RAC2 and 25 for the RAC5? It would take 2.00s for the jam meter to be cleared + 0.50s of spin-down time + 0.50s of spinup time for the next flurry. RAC2 doing only 20 damage, that is 3.636363636363636 EDPS. The RAC5, doing 25 damage, only does 4.545454545454545 EDPS.

You know what that means? To maximize EDPS you really need to use the weapon at it's fullest extent, else just stopping midway just penalizes yourself.

How about the spin-up? That short, and not filling the gauge when spinning up, wouldn't that make spin-up time useless? People could just practice preemptively spinning it up, or macroing it to do so. And what about poking?

I wouldn't worry about poking, it's only mostly effective if you can do a most of your damage, a lot of damage, at the shortest amount of time to minimize damage being received. Not only you're preemptively building up heat without doing damage as you maintain the spin-up time, you also need to stare enemies at an idiotic amount of time which is really just bad. To put that into perspective, the RAC5 needs 1.5s of stare time to do 15 damage, when a gauss rifle could do it in an instant it hits. That means that 1.5s from a gauss rifle to stare could be used for cover, either armor rolling or side shielding, or just hiding back into cover. So really, doing so wouldn't be that efficient, so i wouldn't worry about it.

Here's a different take for the RAC system.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 16 July 2017 - 01:08 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Khobai, on 15 July 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

RACs are still too RNG. Its literally like playing DPS roulette. If the weapon jams prematurely you lose.

Its completely wrong that an RAC used in a responsible way (i.e. not running the bar into the red) still does less DPS than an AC5. Why?!



It takes 1 second to spool up, can fire for 4 seconds before turning red, and it takes 10 seconds to dissipate

So an RAC5 thats used responsibly only does about 2.9 dps... which is less than the 3 dps an AC5 can do.

It doesnt make any sense that youre punished for being responsible with the weapon and rewarded for being both irresponsible AND lucky with the weapon. Literally the best way to use the RAC is just to hold down fire and pray it doesnt jam early, there is no point in even trying to practice restraint with the jam bar, because you just get punished for that.

Are you sure about the stats?
I thought it spools faster and takes less than 4s too cool down if you don't jam.

So if you want no RNG, then fire a burst for 4s, cool off for 4 sec and repeat.

Last time I've tested it, I could core any Heavy mech with a single burst or two bursts for an Assault.
Ofc this spreads if your target is twisting, similar to Laser burn and MRM / cLRM stream fire.

I think the RACs are better at burning down the overall armor, similar to MRM, cLRM and LBX.

davoodoo, on 15 July 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:

uac5 10 burst dps, 9 tons.
lpl 10 burst dps, 7 tons.

I need to know sustained cause this statistic alone can skew perception quite nicely...

UACs jam very quickly (RNG) and you can't influence that chance.
LPL burst heat is above 8dph, right?

Would be bad if a weapon would be totally unique and better than the rest in all aspects, right...?

[Kiiyor]

They're fundamentally flawed, and unless there are fundamental changes, they will continue to be fundamentally disappointing.

They're too situational, and too unwieldy. If i'm investing that much tonnage for a worse UAC5, I'd expect to have a weapon system that could at least out perform it in some aspects. As it stands, the RAC might have better burst DPS - but only if the weapon hasn't already been fired, your target is at close range, and... not moving.

On paper, there's maybe a case for it. In game, not so much.

[Khobai]

Quote

Are you sure about the stats?
I thought it spools faster and takes less than 4s too cool down if you don't jam.

yeah im sure about the stats. from the weapon.xml

rampUpTime="1.0" rampDownTime="1.0" jamRampUpTime="5.0" jamRampDownTime="10"

takes 1 second to ramp up and 1 second to ramp down, takes 5 seconds to fill the jam bar, and 10 seconds to dissipate the jam bar

So 1 second ramp up, followed by 4 seconds of firing, and 10 seconds of dissipation means an RAC5 used responsibly with no jam chance actually does less dps than an AC5.

Theres something really wrong with that. Being responsible with the RAC5 and not letting it jam should net you more dps than an AC5.

Edited by Khobai, 15 July 2017 - 06:40 AM.

[davoodoo]

Reno Blade, on 15 July 2017 - 06:22 AM, said:

UACs jam very quickly (RNG) and you can't influence that chance.
LPL burst heat is above 8dph, right?

Would be bad if a weapon would be totally unique and better than the rest in all aspects, right...?

I didnt put those as a statement about rac, but to show why you shouldnt look JUST at burst dps...

If racs turn out to be good, great for me, i dig miniguns.

Edited by davoodoo, 15 July 2017 - 06:37 AM.

[MischiefSC]

With ramp up and long cooldown you don't get that DPS out of them. UAC5s out perform them in every functional sense.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ok unless changed since PTS which I admit it is possible I missed something RAC's do not jam until you have filled the bar and quite honestly it took quite a bit of time to fill that bar. Also during the PTS session, sometime the RAC would gone on firing like forever before jamming and honestly even if it did jam, it was no big deal because you were going to have a long cool down before the bar depleted anyway. It never felt like a UAC where it could jam the second you pulled the trigger and leave you useless for what seemed like forever.

So unless that changed, you could pump out quite a bit of lead before having to worry about anything. No that wasn't the challenge, the challenge was actually getting an enemy to stand still long enough to actually spin up the gun and start taking them under fire. Most of the time I found myself in a situation where the enemy would pop out of cover, I would start to spin up my gun and by the time it started firing, I might only get 2-3 points of damage on target before he got back into cover again, if that. Where I found it useful was if you could catch a target out in the open and otherwise distracted or ironically in a brawl.