21 replies to this topic

[Tyroki]

Even WITH the buff, a pair of RAC2's aren't doing anything worth a damn for the huge amount of negatives involved. The ghost heat of 2 is still utterly ridiculous.

Even the RAC5's were weak, but at least they were doing something.

PGI... you guys can't seriously be keeping this going.
Both AC's AND UAC's are inherently better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El_IWEx8l4w

You'll want to go to 2:01:26ish for the beginning of the RAC run.
Gods they're underwhelming.

They either need a huge damage buff, or a raise on the ghost heat cap.


(As a side note: Looking forward to trying to get a quad UAC10 build running, as well as enjoying a hex UAC2 build on various mechs.)

Edited by Tyroki, 18 July 2017 - 01:51 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Tyroki, on 18 July 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

They either need a huge damage buff, or a raise on the ghost heat cap.

They need a god damn rework. I already have a mathematically sound configuration.

The6thMessenger, on 02 July 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

Quote

General Changes:

- RACs Jam 100% when Jam Meter is filled.
- RACs do not fill Jam Meter while spinning, only while shooting.
- RACs having shot, don't need to spin-up, until Spin-Down is completed. During which they could still shoot without needing to spin-up.
- Always during operation, the weapon generates heat. Be it during spin-up, spin-down, or firing, it will generate heat. Like Stealth Armor.

Quote

RAC2:

Damage/shot: 0.80
Projectile Speed: 2000
Shots/Sec: 10.00
Burst DPS: 8.00
Total Damage/Burst: 40
Total Shots/Burst: 50
Spin-Up Time: 0.50s
Spin-Down Time: 0.50s
Burst Duration: 5.00s
Jam Dissipation: 4.00s
Jam Duration: 4.00s
EDPS: 4.00

Quote

RAC5:

Damage/shot: 1.25
Projectile Speed: 1650
Shots/Sec: 8.00
Burst DPS: 10.00
Total Damage/Burst: 50
Total Shots/burst: 40
Spin-Up Time: 0.50s
Spin-Down Time: 0.50s
Burst Duration: 5.00s
Jam Dissipation: 4.00s
Jam Duration: 4.00s
EDPS: 5.00

Edited by The6thMessenger, 18 July 2017 - 01:02 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

There is more to weapons than the ability to boat them, you are putting the cart before the horse here too.

[Kiiyor]

Yeah, they still don't work great.

I liked the speed with which the 5's stripped that Awesome's torsos, but they still don't look great - too much spread DPS, too much face time.

Maybe a couple of 2's would work if you use UAC10's? Or would that trigger GH too?

Maybe you could stop firing each time you wanted to double tap the 10's...

...meh. Too complex. Too anemic to work as a primary weapon, to unwieldy to use with other dakka.

[The6thMessenger]

Also, just copy paste the one on the address bar.

[Endost33L]

Racs will probably be the most infuriating weapon to be hit with. When a half decent pilot starts shooting at the whereabouts of your cockpit, i doubt you will be able to fight back with accuracy.

[RestosIII]

Endost33L, on 18 July 2017 - 01:39 AM, said:

Racs will probably be the most infuriating weapon to be hit with. When a half decent pilot starts shooting at the whereabouts of your cockpit, i doubt you will be able to fight back with accuracy.

From my testing on the PTS, I had a lot more trouble with being blinded by MRMs than RAC's. Don't really expect that to change on live

[Tyroki]

Shifty McSwift, on 18 July 2017 - 01:05 AM, said:

There is more to weapons than the ability to boat them, you are putting the cart before the horse here too.

Okay, watch the vid. Even IF you didn't boat them, look at the incredibly mediocre damage the RAC2's are doing. You can do better with 2-3 AC2's with less face-time, no reason to stop firing if you don't need to due to lack of jam, less weight and less crit slots.

[Shifty McSwift]

Tyroki, on 18 July 2017 - 01:50 AM, said:

Okay, watch the vid. Even IF you didn't boat them, look at the incredibly mediocre damage the RAC2's are doing. You can do better with 2-3 AC2's with less face-time, no reason to stop firing if you don't need to due to lack of jam, less weight and less crit slots.

Sure and if you get lucky with UACs you make every other gun in the game look like a peashooter, there are plenty of elements of disharmonious balance about, new weapons didn't mean better weapons ever, though maybe it should, and if RACs need a buff, they will need a buff.

Even watching the video it is hard to tell exactly how they will play out, the AC comparison is flawed in ways, UAC almost makes a better comparison, but still the controllable jam chance etc... I am just nowhere near as certain as with something like heavy laser to pulse laser comparisons.

In a general sense I think high to full face time weapons are a bad idea when you have options that allow you to not have to (it's the main reason why I dislike AC2s), a backup facetime weapon like machine guns, used when you are firing and not being targeted can certainly be useful, but relying on full face time to deal your real damage (which is measured in DPS by comparison to say splat weapons), is risky. As risky as boating anything, possibly moreso.

[Tyroki]

Shifty McSwift, on 18 July 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

Sure and if you get lucky with UACs you make every other gun in the game look like a peashooter, there are plenty of elements of disharmonious balance about, new weapons didn't mean better weapons ever, though maybe it should, and if RACs need a buff, they will need a buff.

Even watching the video it is hard to tell exactly how they will play out, the AC comparison is flawed in ways, UAC almost makes a better comparison, but still the controllable jam chance etc... I am just nowhere near as certain as with something like heavy laser to pulse laser comparisons.

In a general sense I think high to full face time weapons are a bad idea when you have options that allow you to not have to (it's the main reason why I dislike AC2s), a backup facetime weapon like machine guns, used when you are firing and not being targeted can certainly be useful, but relying on full face time to deal your real damage (which is measured in DPS by comparison to say splat weapons), is risky. As risky as boating anything, possibly moreso.

From what we've seen of them so far, you have to push RAC's in to the danger zone and risk getting unlucky to make them worth the expenditure. So what exactly is the difference, outside of them being worse on weight, slots and requiring a lot of facetime? At least with UAC's you can fire for a brief time, back off and it was still worth it. Even AC's are better than RAC's. No, that isn't a stretch. They're far more efficient and do their damage with far less risky facetime if you so desire. It's not exactly a flawed comparison.

The problem with RAC's is that they're ridiculously inefficient, made worse by an arse ghost heat limit.

Obviously we'll all end up trying them tomorrow regardless, but from what we've seen and what we know, they're not very good at all.

[Shifty McSwift]

Tyroki, on 18 July 2017 - 02:38 AM, said:

From what we've seen of them so far, you have to push RAC's in to the danger zone and risk getting unlucky to make them worth the expenditure. So what exactly is the difference, outside of them being worse on weight, slots and requiring a lot of facetime? At least with UAC's you can fire for a brief time, back off and it was still worth it. Even AC's are better than RAC's. No, that isn't a stretch. They're far more efficient and do their damage with far less risky facetime if you so desire. It's not exactly a flawed comparison.

The problem with RAC's is that they're ridiculously inefficient, made worse by an arse ghost heat limit.

Obviously we'll all end up trying them tomorrow regardless, but from what we've seen and what we know, they're not very good at all.

Hey if they fail to deliver on the one aspect they should, which is decent DPS, then I will be in agreement, though again that idea of constant face time is daunting enough in itself for most mechs. I am also trying to consider the kinds of DPS that will be available when they are mixed with other weapons.

Having them a decent weapon is one thing but making them too good, or have too much synergy with other facetime weapons to the point where they are meta level destructive, is actually bad IMO, it doesn't promote twisting, and it highly promotes just facecharging every problem, or going full turret mode.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

I think the biggest problem of RAC2 is poor range. It's okay for RAC5 to be overall better but the only thing RAC5 loses is very small weight difference, which is hardly worth the half DPS. RAC5 still does more damage at RAC2 optimal range, with small heat "penalty". 90 meters closer and it dissapears. That's so silly.

[MustrumRidcully]

Aside from the PTS ghost heat bug, I really woudn't worry about ghost heat as the thing that will keep them down. The ramp-up time and the long facetime needed to get any noteworthy damage out of them will be what's holding them back.

[Widowmaker1981]

Shifty McSwift, on 18 July 2017 - 01:05 AM, said:

There is more to weapons than the ability to boat them, you are putting the cart before the horse here too.

Please tell me the mixed build involving RACs that would be nearly as good as an equivalent mixed build with UACs?

You cant, because the firing profile of RACs does not synergise with anything, where UACs do.

RAC5s as currently implemented are ONLY good for boating. If you cant boat them you absolutely should not use them. RAC2s are just complete and total junk and should never be considered on anything ever.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 18 July 2017 - 04:09 AM.

[kapusta11]

Why take RAC5 over cUAC10? RAC2s are even worse. This is just pathetic.

[davoodoo]

I wonder op how is ghost heat increase on rac2 gonna help that weapon, when i can save weight and pack dual uac10 instead of 4 rac2. More dmg and runs cooler.

Widowmaker1981, on 18 July 2017 - 04:07 AM, said:

You cant, because the firing profile of RACs does not synergise with anything, where UACs do.

you forgot that theyre hot as ****.
2hps when ppc have 2.38...

so only possibility of them being mixed is with other ballistics, preferably small ones too.

Edited by davoodoo, 18 July 2017 - 04:34 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

kapusta11, on 18 July 2017 - 04:25 AM, said:

Why take RAC5 over cUAC10? RAC2s are even worse. This is just pathetic.

Because boating 4 of them is much easier than boating 4 UAC10s, and youd get a cool upfront damage burst that would be hard to equal, as payment for the ridiculous list of drawbacks.

Oh wait. You cant do that.

Because.. erm.

Erm.

Yep, you are right. UAC10 vastly superior.

[Red Shrike]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 July 2017 - 04:07 AM, said:

RAC5s as currently implemented are ONLY good for boating. If you cant boat them you absolutely should not use them.

Too bad, I'll be using them anyway.

[Widowmaker1981]

Red Shrike, on 18 July 2017 - 04:43 AM, said:

Too bad, I'll be using them anyway.

Because you think they are good, or because you dont care about effectiveness?

[Red Shrike]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 July 2017 - 05:18 AM, said:

Because you think they are good, or because you dont care about effectiveness?

The latter.