89 replies to this topic

[deltafiveoh]

I noticed in smurfy that medium pulses are 7 dmg for just over 4.75 heat now, compared to the ER-med 6.30 heat for 7 dmg. Is it worth taking med pulse lasers now, or is the weight tradeoff still too inefficient? On some of my hardpoint starved mechs I was considering using some now that the damage to heat ratio is more favorable.

[Baba Yogi]

They are in an odd place, imo range is its greatest weakness. It only has brawling range yet it is too hot to be a brawling weapon. You can use it as laser vomit but you'll have very limited range if you do. It is however good enough for lights and mediums. I regularly use 6mpls on my HBKIIC-A. I'd say its playstyle is between a laservomit and brawler, yet not good at either. It would be decent enough backup weapons if you have lots of tonnage to spare, but generally ERsml/ERMed does this better as you'd actually have more tonnage.

Edited by Lordhammer, 31 July 2017 - 12:41 PM.

[Coolant]

Assuming you are talking about clan weapons?

[Khobai]

CMPLs are awesome. Theyre way better than CERMLs for multipurpose use.

CERMLs run way too hot now. Youre better off just taking CMPLs and closing the distance gap of 100m-150m. And you still have your x2 CLPLs for longer range.

And CMPLs actually weigh less if you factor in the extra DHS you have to take with CERMLs.


The only reason I would ever use CERMLs is on a mech thats designed specifically to fight in the 400m-550m range bracket. And never ever plans on getting closer than 400m. If you wanna engage farther than 550m youre better off going with the larger clan lasers to avoid the damage dropoff.

Edited by Khobai, 31 July 2017 - 02:02 PM.

[process]

They're more-or-less heavy IS medium or ER medium lasers, and they're are probably as balanced as they've ever been.

Personally I would like to have some Clan options that were lower in duration -- we only have 3 lasers that have durations under 0.9 seconds and they're all kinda junk.

[FupDup]

process, on 31 July 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

Personally I would like to have some Clan options that were lower in duration -- we only have 3 lasers that have durations under 0.9 seconds and they're all kinda junk.

Chemical Lasers could fill that void perhaps, and also have lower heat than IS lasers to boot.

This would come at the consequence of requiring ammo though while having damage/range/etc. stats similar to IS lasers.

[Ghogiel]

CMPLs are okish. They are a bit inferior now they moved them to be more of a DPS weap instead of high alpha type. They end up having to compete in 300-400m ranges, which is an awkward range for high level playing since it's ggclose time when the real deeps or brawl weaps push on you, you'll just lose. but works great in pugs and against noobs.

CERML got their double range falloff dmg back. Which one of the reasons why the meta is still laser vomit and gauss vomit is back. CERML are superior for the most part though there are drawbacks, which are basically the same as the CMPL, CERML at least pretty much dominates a range bracket now that they still hit hard at 600m instead of doing mostly nothing

[Khobai]

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Chemical Lasers could fill that void perhaps, and also have lower heat than IS lasers to boot.

Chemical Lasers shouldve been added to the game

They wouldve been way better than Heavy Lasers

Effectively theyd work in the same range bands as heavy lasers, but they would have none of the crippling flaws of heavy lasers (long cooldown, long duration, high heat) in exchange for the flaw of using ammo, which really isnt that bad of a flaw.

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CERML got their double range falloff dmg back.

they also got their heat increased though. so now CERML arnt really worth using past about 550m.

I mean 6.3 heat to do 3.5 damage at 600m just isnt worth it. that heat to damage ratio is terrible.

both the ISERML and CERML are way too hot IMO. The added heat makes the additional range largely pointless because of damage dropoff.

If you plan on shooting things past 550m then theres better options than CERML.

Quote

CMPLs are okish

I still find them better than CERML though.

They weigh less than CERML with heat and DHS tonnage factored in.

And theyre much more effective than CERML out to about 400m because of the much shorter beam duration and much lower heat.

Which means the window where CERML are more useful is only between about 400m-550m. So if youre confident about being able to close that 150m gap youre better off just using CMPLs.

Edited by Khobai, 31 July 2017 - 02:35 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Khobai, on 31 July 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

Chemical Lasers shouldve been added to the game

They wouldve been way better than Heavy Lasers

Effectively theyd work in the same range bands as heavy lasers, but they would have none of the crippling flaws of heavy lasers (long cooldown, long duration, high heat) in exchange for the flaw of using ammo, which really isnt that bad of a flaw.



they also got their heat increased though. so now CERML arnt really worth using past about 550m.

I mean 6.3 heat to do 3.5 damage at 600m just isnt worth it. that heat to damage ratio is terrible.

both the ISERML and CERML are way too hot IMO. The added heat makes the additional range largely pointless because of damage dropoff.

If you plan on shooting things past 550m then theres better options than CERML.



I still find them better than CERML though.

They weigh less than CERML with heat and DHS tonnage factored in.

And theyre much more effective than CERML out to about 400m because of the much shorter beam duration and much lower heat.

Which means the window where CERML are more useful is only between about 400m-550m. So if youre confident about being able to close that 150m gap youre better off just using CMPLs.

I sure people will use some CMPLs in comp, but they aren't the lasers that are going to dominate the current laser/gauss vomit meta. besides that, imo 300-400m is such a goofy range to play in it only works well in organised play as a single outlier mech shooting into the brawl pushes as a sort of close support.

Edited by Ghogiel, 31 July 2017 - 02:48 PM.

[Khobai]

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I sure people will use some CMPLs in comp, but they aren't the lasers that are going to dominate the current laser/gauss vomit meta.

I dont see CERMLs dominating either though. way too much heat.

[Ghogiel]

Khobai, on 31 July 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

I dont see CERMLs dominating either though. way too much heat.

double Coolshot

baring any balance change I'd bet you see twice as many CERML boating mechs than mpls in the WC.

[Khobai]

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baring any balance change I'd bet you see twice as many CERML boating mechs than mpls in the WC.

maybe. its far easier to get into brawling ranges in 8v8. so itll be interesting to see which gets used more.

[Ghogiel]

Khobai, on 31 July 2017 - 03:35 PM, said:

maybe. its far easier to get into brawling ranges in 8v8. so itll be interesting to see which gets used more.

Like I said its a bad range bracket because at 300-400m you might as well actually brawl

[Shifty McSwift]

Khobai, on 31 July 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

CERMLs run way too hot now.

Considering prepatch they didn't have that extra max range they do now, they had always been way too hot, when looking at other options, boating them on a laser vomit light or medium was only really done to conserve weight, in general they were used in synergy with LPL, and still, were very hot for what they did, but just combod well with the stronger better ranged LPL.

Now the difference is even larger, the MPL burn time is less, its cooldown is less, and it's overall range is actually substantially lower than ERML. MPL is in a better spot, but ERML has become more distinct, IMO still worse than MPL, but valuable in that bonus range.

[Khobai]

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Like I said its a bad range bracket because at 300-400m you might as well actually brawl

but if a brawl happens youre still going to be better off with CMPL than if you took CERML

brawling is far more common in 8v8 than 12v12

Quote

Considering prepatch they didn't have that extra max range they do now, they had always been way too hot

yes but now CERML are even hotter

and CMPL are cooler than they used to be

but its not just about the heat either. the beam duration is ret arded on CERML.

youre paying way more heat for the same amount of damage thats spread around way more

Edited by Khobai, 31 July 2017 - 04:22 PM.

[Baba Yogi]

Problem is though in a brawl MPLs are still weak. ERMLs are weak also but they are not brawl weapons and have a different strength which is good damage to decent range with very little crit/tonnage investment. But the biggest problem imo is most engagements in the game are generally in 500ish range. Pulse lasers do dirt damage at that range while traditional lplerml does most of its damage. MPL boats cant contribute in those first trades which is a huge detriment to their team. And by the time frontlines come closer for a brawl its utility is hampered by how hot it is.

[Jun Watarase]

Lordhammer, on 31 July 2017 - 05:18 PM, said:

Problem is though in a brawl MPLs are still weak. ERMLs are weak also but they are not brawl weapons and have a different strength which is good damage to decent range with very little crit/tonnage investment. But the biggest problem imo is most engagements in the game are generally in 500ish range. Pulse lasers do dirt damage at that range while traditional lplerml does most of its damage. MPL boats cant contribute in those first trades which is a huge detriment to their team. And by the time frontlines come closer for a brawl its utility is hampered by how hot it is.

Strange, in my experience most engangements occur at 400m or less, because most maps have cover that lets you keep out of LOS till that point. Many maps also have spots that let you get to 200m or less while keeping out of LOS. Mining collective, viridian bog, river city, crimson strait, HPG manifold, etc....before clans came out, I used to use a stalker with nothing but MLs/SRMs and getting close was only hard on alpine peaks.

[Ghogiel]

Khobai, on 31 July 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:

but if a brawl happens youre still going to be better off with CMPL than if you took CERML

brawling is far more common in 8v8 than 12v12

Not really. Trading at range can counter brawl pretty hard. by not trading at range and allowing the brawl to happen mostly intact without counter brawling and trying to poke at 300-400m sounds pretty terrible and I expect that's why no one does it and no one will.

[Zergling]

Khobai, on 31 July 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

And CMPLs actually weigh less if you factor in the extra DHS you have to take with CERMLs.

Uh, Clan ER Medium Laser is 1.26 HPS versus Clan Medium Pulse at 1.22 HPS. That is only 0.04 HPS difference, while a double heatsink is worth 0.15 HPS.

If you're talking about a mech that has the space for the heatsinks, an ER Medium Laser build will end up considerably cooler running than a Medium Pulse build.

Eg, 6x Medium Pulse Hellbringer
That is 7.31 HPS versus 4.25 heat dissipation per second, for 58.16% heat efficiency

vs 6x ER Medium Laser Hellbringer
That is 7.56 HPS versus 5.00 heat dissipation per second, for 66.14% heat efficiency


The Medium Pulse build does have higher maximum and sustained DPS though; 10.77 and 6.26 versus 8.4 and 5.56 for the ER Medium Laser build, but the Medium Pulse build isn't cooler running.

[Jackal Noble]

Man, khobai, that is some hardcore ninja quoting on your tablet. Do you even use a computer?
Assuming you don't use your tablet to play the actual game? Ya know that same tablet which apparently has the inability to quote people(lol)

Edited by JackalBeast, 31 July 2017 - 06:08 PM.