59 replies to this topic

[Abisha]

OrmsbyGore, on 20 July 2017 - 11:17 PM, said:

OK, I'll bite, which mediums have more armor than assaults?

most med mechs have 370 armor with quarks that give armor and internal bonus's.
making them tougher then most assaults. on top of that many can zombie build and are harder to hit by size.

[Shifty McSwift]

Dakota1000, on 20 July 2017 - 10:28 PM, said:

ATMs are what I was using, not LRMs. I sit up close at 200-270m from the target and get my damage in, as I said, I put out 780 with multiple KMDD on mining collective of all places. I'm just saying that people get pretty crazy on the "YOU MUST PUSH" mentality, people don't need to facehug to brawl, and mechs using PPCs, ATMs, RLs, or LRMs are useless if they attempt to facehug.

I am fine with taking damage, just not taking pointless damage, that's how you lose a game. Its like standing out of cover while you reload, its pointless to rush in at an enemy to get even closer to them and be shot up by their guns when you are already in a range close enough to be dealing your full damage. Save armor for surprise attacks, countering enemy pushes, and increasing the amount of times you can poke before your armor has worn out, hillsides have much more than you do.

Everyone has armor to share, but many people use up much more than their fair share and expect others to carry the weight. Why should I have to die so that some other teammate doesn't? Its especially bad when a T1 pilot in an assault mech dies so that someone else in a lighter mech can live, the impact it has on total team DPS is immense. Pilots should know they are valuable assets to their team and try to put out as much damage as they can for as little in return as possible.

Agreed, BTW in my post I didn't mean you as in YOU specifically, just the proverbial you, and I also meant heavies, not larges, I hadn't had my coffee yet

[MischiefSC]

It's QP. Most people don't bring push builds to QP, because the reality is that a good push is harder than camping and sniping. Takes better situational awareness and positioning and you can't be scared of getting shot and it's often successful based on your ability to out-shoot or out-maneuver the enemy directly instead of taking a 'hope to get lucky' approach.

Which eliminates most people who play QP from that option. Coordinated focused fire and firing lines are another skill oriented strategy that you won't see in QP.

However, almost universally QP matches are settled by whatever team plays the most aggressively. That doesn't necessarily mean pushing to 90m from the enemy but it does mean moving consistently toward the enemy, pushing and playing aggressively and staying in a group and moving forward. The team that is shooting the most and pushing (maybe not face-hugging, but pushing) is going to win. You can look at the minimap, see the enemy team moving forward and your team moving back and 99 times out of 100 realize you're about to lose.

Maybe not 99 out of 100. I can however attest to 97 out of 100.

Passive/frightened/cowardly players lose a ton and find excuses for why they try to hide a lot and why it's not their fault they lose. Aggressive teams roll them constantly and know exactly what drives wins.

Is what it is. In a called push if you're not a point blank brawler it's probably best to move forward and off to the side on a flank, this will help you keep your range and positioning while still drawing fire, sharing armor and facilitating your teams push. You're lucky it's your team that called the push and not the others - if the other team had pushed into your 120m range your lightsaber HLs would have been pretty worthless and the ATMs irrelevant. Fortunately the other team was the one that got pushed, not the one that did the pushing.

[Reza Malin]

MischiefSC, on 21 July 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

*sense*

Also, whenever people call push in QP, half the team usually wont respond inside 60 seconds, by that time the other half is being focused down.

Game over.

Any tactic in QP is unreliable, because you never know who you will end up teamed with.

What Mischief says about constantly edging forward to get shots, with the rest of the team, is about as good as it gets when it comes to pushing, unless you end up on a miracle team of experienced players who understand when a good push is best used and seize the opportunity when it presents.

So basically, as i always have found with QP, its just a lottery of who you end up with on your team.....

[LordNothing]

getting blocked when backing up on a push? it was a push right? which implies foreward not backward. i think id have more issue with the guys in the back not also pushing. this is the way it was in fp all night. someone would say push, and one or two assaults push, nobody else does, and the assaults die. this is a bad use of assault mechs.

this calls into question the role of assault mechs. as for myself i want to see assault mechs shooting. i dont need to see them as the tip of the sword, i sure as hell dont want to see them take up the rear. i want them in a place where they can continuously spew fourth damage. doing something that gets them killed too early is a waste. not just for their pilots but for the entire team. every time you found an easy target or had somone draw fire for you to help you win games and make cbills, there was probibly an assault mech there softening up the targets and tanking. as for their place, in the middle of a murderball. they should be safe and doing as much damage as possible. no that is not an excuse to run lerms.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 July 2017 - 01:32 AM.

[Khobai]

i think a big part of the problem is that MWO hasnt added any of the defensive tech like reflective/ablative armor, blue shield, hardened armor, etc...

Assaults really could use more defensive tech to stay alive because their enormous hit boxes and lack of mobility makes them less survivable than heavies. And theyre subject to the same heat cap as heavies so they really dont get more firepower than heavies unless they opt to use low heat ballistics which tend to be more dps oriented and require more facetime to use which requires more survivability which assaults dont have. Unless of course theyre exceptions like the Kodiak that have really high ballistic hardpoints to minimize exposure, but thats not most assaults.

Plus the agility of some assaults got nerfed really bad and they cant torso twist anymore. Or their agility was always bad like the direwolf and they could never torso twist in the first place.

Its like whats the point of assaults? theyre just slower less survivable heavies that have to spam high tonnage ballistic weapons that require facetime to stay ahead in firepower? is being glass cannon turrets their entire role? in most cases thats super disappointing and the Kodiak is really the only assault thats performing on the level. Assault survivability needs to come way up for all the non-Kodiaks out there.

Edited by Khobai, 21 July 2017 - 01:51 AM.

[LordNothing]

blueshield and ablative would have been the better way to deal with ppc+gauss imho. great ways to solve the ppfld problem. reflective armor also solves the laser vomit problem. more counters to things pls. then you wouldnt have to nerf everything into oblivion.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 July 2017 - 01:43 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

OrmsbyGore, on 20 July 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

You make a great point in (kinda) distinguishing between a push and a suicide run; however, ask yourself: how fun would a match be for you if your 11 teammates decided to turn around and run into the corner of the map from the enemy starting position while you were getting into cover and choosing a sniping position, essentially leaving you in the front lines while the enemy team advances on your position? That is basically what you are doing when you hang back in an assault

I've had that situation happen before to me. I was in a Mad Dog, 2 ALRM20 and 5 SPLs on domination in grim plexus, me and one Adder were in the circle up front behind a building defending against all the enemies that would come near while the other 10 people sat back behind a hill and did absolutely nothing, not getting in the circle, not even firing some LRMs at the targets.

Though that's similar to what happened in the match I talk about in OP. I was 200m from the enemy infront of everyone holding off 2 assaults and a heavy by myself when some jerk behind me tells me to push and blocks me from being able to get to cover to continue effectively holding the line.


There is a huge difference between hanging back and realizing you have the terrain advantage where you are. Taking up a good defensive position is what allows me to take down lances worth of mechs without anyone else helping out. I don't push in blindly, but I'm always putting in shots on my enemies with direct firepower. If I have the help of a good corner or hill I can put in some work. I've taken down half a team's worth of opponents as last man in multiple cases using cover, I don't rely on my team taking shots for me, I rely on the dirt taking it and realize my allies are more valuable than dirt.

Too many people these days take not pushing as hiding in the back, I definitely know I sure wasn't hiding and I was within SRM range of the enemies, only allies nearby hiding behind me. It can't all be push all the time, especially with assaults. The assault class is all about positioning, you are the pin that holds together a front with your massive firepower, making it hard for enemies to return fire on your team without getting blown to bits. I find that killing enemies or breaking all their shooty bits off helps save my team from damage a lot better than just walking infront of the enemy to be shot.

[Yellonet]

Well at least now I'm not just assuming that this is the way clanners think.

Edited by Yellonet, 21 July 2017 - 02:03 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yellonet, on 21 July 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

Well at least now I'm not just assuming that this is the way clanners think.

Technically I'm Liao driving some salvage.

[Luminis]

I pilot Assaults a lot these days, be it brawlers, mid-rangey builds or more long-range oriented. But even in brawling builds, I've largely stopped properly pushing or adhering to the "PUSH!!" call some people like to make. Most of the time, at least. Despite the fact that I'm typically rather aggressive - got a twitchy trigger finger, y'know?

The thing is, I currently perceive there to be three big issues that really do keep me from pushing more often.

First, builds. This is pretty obvious and has been pointed out previously, but it bears repeating: Depending on what 'Mech and loadout you're running, you'll be practically suiciding by taking point in a push. Lumping all Assaults together into the "big tanky mofo" category doesn't help. People in QP seem to think that an energy boating MAD-IIC is just as suited to leading a push as an ANH-2A boating ballistics. This sort of feeds into the "IS taking point" thingy that was mentioned earlier: IS 'Mechs tend to run cooler and sport defensive quirks, making some of them far more sustainable under fire. Even then, though, just because they're IS doesn't make them best suited to take the pain automatically. Be that as it may, I find myself running builds not sporting the sustainability to frontline for extended periods of time and I'm assuming the same to be true for many other players (especially considering that some of these builds are straight-up meta on some variants).

Second, follow through: Adhering to the call for a push is a huge gamble. There's a good chance you'll be followed in by just one ore two 'Mechs and die to focus fire because you're the only exposed target. I think I said it in another threat, but I feel like there's a good few players out there who say "push" when they really mean "be my meatshield and drag a target out from cover for me". You can chalk this up to QP being QP, of course... But getting a feeling for when a PUG will follow you into the push is somewhat essential here and I, for one, prefer not to push when in doubt.

Third, the reward system: I know, I know, winning earns you more than losing. However, leading a push and getting popped early with just a single kill / KMDD and some lousy 400 damage just isn't rewarded very well.

As a result, I consistently find myself performing much better and contributing more, ironically, when staying with the deathball, sharing armour, going up front and fading back when taking excessive damage.

[Baba Yogi]

Dude, assaults are the best pushers in the game, though granted not all assaults are created equally. Single assault dont pose much threat, and if its the first one on the frontlines alone ahead it'll die too quick. A push becomes dangerous when you can put every single mech in your team at the front lines, assaults on the first lines with heavies and mediums filling the middle. Then enemy frontline crumbles if they have too many people on the sides doing "their thing". Firepower between teams would be same "only if" absent snipers are doing their job but in this example enemy team will have a lot less armor on the front thus crumble easier because in this situation one team is focusing their firepower much better than the other. And assaults generally have the best chance to survive taking the damage and still live if they know when to drop to second line in a push.

As you can see how it is tactically superior to have more bodies on front. Granted it doesnt mean everyone at all times should stick to deathball. But every mech basically has a certain radius at which they can safely be apart from team and this is determined by their mobility. A shadow cat or something similar can do sniping well but they can also close in quickly when necessery and light snipers do this well too. The thing they need to do is to take enemies attention by either forcing them to split and chase you or shoot at enemies back armor thus increase your force multiplier on the battlefield.

I should say ofc these are the scenarios based on both teams being very equal. There are a lot of things in this game that increases(or decreases) force multipliers on the battlefield. While teamwork is the strongest element, amount of that which can be achieved in pugs are rather limited. Good builds, drop synergy, luck, personal skill, generally these have too big of a variance in PUGs thus can determine the outcome before the fight began.

Edited by Lordhammer, 21 July 2017 - 03:49 AM.

[FunkyT]

I totally agree that not all assault builds are suited for leading the push, because of high heat or minimum ranges.

But specifically for the latter one:
Why would you take one of the biggest, most well-armored and well-armed mechs in the game, and boat weapons that make you rely almost entirely on your teammates and basically tell "I'm gonna hide behind everyone, even lights. Their laser at least don't have minimum range".

That's the big point I don't understand. Why do you boat weapons with minimum ranges on assault mechs? Why do you implement your own hardcounter, where the smallest light mech can facetank you because you are helpless below 90m?

I understand that this is a game with a lot of choice, and as such everyone is entirely free to put whatever the hell they want on their mechs. But wouldn't you agree that boating may be a bad idea sometimes?
How about taking LRMs and ATMs as support weapons? Try and create some mixed loadouts, with cool running ballistics, some lasers for extra damage and some LRMs/ATMs to support your approach. That way you don't get immediately deactivated if the enemy pushes you and you can actually support your frontline in a push, even if you may not be the tip of the spear.


And I also agree that some heavies are better suited for leading pushes than some assault mechs. Since the update I've had a lot of fun with my mid-close range Roughnecks, boasting assault-level survivability. I'm perfectly aware that I can take as much damage as the fatty next to me. But I'm still hesitant to lead the push.

First of, I'm probably a lot faster than my fatty collegues. So if I start pushing, I'm probably reduced to rubble by the time the other guys managed to move out of cover, even if they started pushing with me.
Secondly, pushing next to an assault mech just makes you feel a lot safer. You'll probably not be the first to get shot, can bring your own firepower to the table and start moving in front of your friend and blocking some of the incoming fire, when you see that he's already taken quite a beating.

Another point about heavy pushes is psychology of the average player. If an Atlas, a Roughneck and a Cougar start pushing at the same time, walking right next to each other towards the enemy, who do you think most enemies will shoot first?
Probably the Atlas, because it's an Atlas.
The Roughneck would probably be next, because it's a heavy.
The Cougar would most likely be last, even if he can probably (and quite easily) match the firepower of the other two.

So if you lead a push with heavies and your CQC assaults follow up, they will likely draw fire away from you the moment they step out of cover. Granted, you will have taken the inital burst of the enemy firepower and heated them up a little, reducing the following pain...but your more or less "fragile" assault will still get the rest.


Of course, people not working together at all in QP is another thing entirely. Don't think there is anything you can do about that when dropcalling.
Hell, I regularly see people without VOIP on the matches.
Like, really? This is a team game and you don't bother to hear what your teammates say?
If you don't have a mic, that's a pity but not the end. Just activate VOIP to LISTEN to what the team says! Really, it helps!


Edit:
Boy, that came out more rant-y than I planned.

Edited by FunkyT, 21 July 2017 - 04:09 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Dakota1000, on 20 July 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

So I just got out of a match in which I was using a Scorch with 4 ATM12s and 2 HMLs on Mining Collective. I got 780 damage and 3 KMDD, not too bad, but at one point in the game I was on the ramp, up top was a Warhammer, Kodiak, and a Mad Cat MKII sitting back on their ramp. I was peeking up over the edge and hammering people in my optimal range for 144 damage, quickly killed a Warhammer and nearly ripped the Kodiak in half when my team had a guy on comms who said to push and then started blocking my mech.

I wasn't going to run into min range a Mad Cat MK2 and a very angry KDK-3 with only 2 HMLs to protect me of course, so I refused to push up the ramp, turned the whole mech around, and went around the side of theta to get away from the team mates and let them push, went on to kill the Kodiak from behind, open up a couple flanking enemies who got killed by an ally firing a couple UAC10s at the red CT, then finished up the game, peppering some stragglers.


I'd just like to remind people that pushing into facehugging range isn't the best strategy for many different mechs and that trading at range is often a much more viable option (similar to the last time 10 dead teammates asked me and my partner [2 man team] to charge at an LRM boat catapult in the open frozen ocean of Frozen city with no cover even though both me and my ally were open with red CT and had 2 ERPPCs each. We ignored them for obvious reasons and continued to trade, dodging into cover before the lrms hit and taking the win).

People often believe assaults to be the designated pushers, but its time to change up the perception. The IS Dragon has similar levels of armor to my Marauder IIC, IS heavies should push up infront of the team, as they often have shorter ranged weapons, much better twist speeds, and similar levels of armor but don't carry the same level of pure firepower as a Clan assault mech.

Let the Clanners in big heavy mechs sit back and support while the ultra armored IS builds move on up and brawl. You'll win more matches if everyone plays to their strengths together rather than thinking all assaults are tanks like the Atlas, its just not 2012 anymore.



TLDR: Don't block allies who are making trades and try to force them to push, they likely are staying at mid range because its their optimal range and moving up close makes them deadweight, just push past them and let them support you, or wait for them to clear the area they are working on.

The problem is that your team can't see your builds. All the see is a Assault standing back in the pack when it could be out front sharing its armor and taking some of the heat off other mechs. Honestly it is a tough call whether or not you should hang back, even if you are mostly support. Sharing armor is fairly vital at times and can mean the difference between winning and loosing.

On the other hand, pushing forward and wasting your armor when you don't need to can be just as bad but I have to admit I have seen way too many Assault mechs standing back in the back with fresh armor after their team has already been rolled and they are the last mech left standing. Preserving your armor is meaningless if costs your team the victory.

That being said, I think there should be a balance. Even if your a LRM boat or some other type of support, if your in an Assault or even a Heavy, you should be up at least near the front line giving the enemy another target to shoot at.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 21 July 2017 - 05:27 AM.

[KodiakGW]

See mech hugging all the time. Too many people wanting to secure a kill to keep their K/D ratio up, that sometimes ends up losing the game when they take longer to secure it than if I just got one more shot off.

When I first saw your title I thought just the opposite. Last night was Assault heavy, with 4-6 Assaults every game. All I saw from the ones on my team were BAWK, BAWK, BAWK, BAWK.

"Must be a henhouse, cuz all I see is....."

[Skanderborg]

100 tonners have on average 110 CT armor , thats two alphas from any mech above 50 tons. You will die in 3 seconds if you push.

[Asym]

Ha ! This thread is funny....

PGI is de-evolving the game "into a 2D brawling platform" and we're talking about "not brawling...."

Now THAT is funny.

Someone earlier alluded to Medium mechs having more armor that assaults..... Ton for ton, past skill tree LIGHT mechs are the most powerful systemns in the game. It is just about impossible to destroy Urban's. Ravens and many others. Heck, I've seen lights in the wall of battle out survive Assaults!!!!

Good grief crew: PGI isn't done yet and in a short while, all that really will be left, outside of competition meta for the elite 10% will be 90 ton + Assaults and Mini-Assault Lights (MAL's.....) Everything else, becomes "points fodder..."

PH, another observation over the past several days: RAC's in enclosed spaces cause many to "run away" and "never to Push again....." Food for thought as to why several players I've run into have changed play styles and mech loadouts on HPR, Crimson and Mining....

[Wildstreak]

Vellron2005, on 20 July 2017 - 11:28 PM, said:

Anyone who's ever played D&D can tell you - 4 melee fighters in a party of 4 is simply bad party composition.. You need the wizard, the cleric, and the rogue..

While I agree with most of what you said, you can run a party of 4 of one class so long as your DM runs a campaign designed to that.

MischiefSC, on 21 July 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

Passive/frightened/cowardly players lose a ton and find excuses for why they try to hide a lot and why it's not their fault they lose. Aggressive teams roll them constantly and know exactly what drives wins.

Too many people are tossing around terms like passive/frightened/cowardly/hiding without looking at the details of what is happening in any match for well over a year or two now.

[SmoothCriminal]

I feel it needs to be reiterated that you win this game by dishing out more damage on trades than the opposition. If that means pushing/rolling a flank, then fine - but if you are winning the damage battle there is zero reason throw yourself over the top.

[Vincent DIFrancesco]

The reality of push calls in quick play is that they're BS. They're often made by mouthy people who get bored with the early stages of a game (sniping and missiles) and call for a push so their teammates can soak damage while they poke around from behind and get their kills and call themselves expert tacticians. Inevitably, the pushers die, the pull caller gets his scores before he dies too and then spends the remaining time telling us all how bad we suck. (That last part is optional. But the option gets taken pretty often.)

True Story: I'm in Crimson Strait in a stock MCII-4. (ERLLs and LRMs. I've been trying her out.) So I'm sitting in a spot near the tunnel trading shots with people just under the bridge when a mouthy guy on our team begins to call for a push on tunnel. He does so in a rude, arrogant manner, berating the assaults in front of him in the tunnel to keep moving. This is while they're driving right into the maw of the mechs I've been shooting at. Now, even though the guy is being an *** about it, I don't want to leave the forward line in the lurch. So I move through the gap next to the tunnel exit under the bridge and join my brethren on the front line. We all are taking a pounding. But hey, it's for the team, right?

What we didn't know was that there were enemies coming in the back side of the tunnel. They proceed to burn down mouthy guy and his buddies that were behind us and move to encircle the front line. At this point, the front line consists of me. I know I'm going down real soon. I'm trying to do as much as I can before I go down.

This is when now-dead mouthy guy starts yelling in chat for me to turn around. I decide to ignore him. Yes, I know they're behind me. No, there's not much I can do about it. Because, you see, I didn't fail basic geometry. I understand that being in the middle of a circle of enemies means I'm getting shot in the back, no matter which side I'm facing. So I keep shooting at the guys in front of me. Inevitably, I die and we lose.

At this point, our mouthy buddy decides to spend the next minute or two completely berating me for not following his instructions. When I tried to respond he became even more hostile and insulting.

I'm not saying all people in QP who try to call are like this guy. But many of them are. We only have a short amount of exposure to them in game, assuming we don't recognize them by name, to figure out if their orders have merit. So when I'm told assaults need to push, I'm not necessarily going to do so. Not because I want to be a weenie. But because I don't necessarily trust the push caller.

EDIT: fixed a bad typo. I don't promise there aren't more. :-)

Edited by Vincent DIFrancesco, 21 July 2017 - 09:14 AM.