43 replies to this topic

[Calebos]

Doomerang, on 25 July 2017 - 04:16 AM, said:

Exactly the kind of nothing response I'd expect from a non-tier 1 noob.

Your stupidity looks to be on the same level as your self confidence, young milk sucker.

[McHoshi]

Doomerang, on 25 July 2017 - 04:16 AM, said:

Exactly the kind of nothing response I'd expect from a non-tier 1 noob.

Doomerang, on 25 July 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

Typical. I post about a real issue and instead of minding their own business people drop in to troll it down. Thats the main reason why balance in this game has always been ****, too. The devs listen to yall when you say that the highest DPS weapon (which happens to be an IS weapon) which also has great ammo efficiency, heat efficiency, range and tonnage/crit space on top of blinding people, isn't really all that great. Good job contributing to the death of the game by fighting for a terribly unbalanced state of play.

Just learn to live with it. Balance is fine somehow but PGI should give CLAN also 265 Tons in FP. And Racs are definitely not OP.

Edited by McHoshi, 26 July 2017 - 06:37 AM.

[The Basilisk]

RACs are ok for mechs that need cover fire or blinding power to use their REAL weapons.
But honestly even in that they are poor choices since they are to hot and need to be leeded a lot.

As primary dmg dealer they suck due to spread, ghost heat treshhold and bulkyness.

[SPNKRGrenth]

Every time someone says RACs are OP, I wish they would have the decency to specify that they mean the RAC5. Because RAC2s are just worse than AC2s, nevermind the hot running powerhouse that is UAC2s. As for the blinding, it was posted somewhere that it was going to be toned down in the next patch, so that's not going to be a problem for long.

RAC5s do have the potential to out sustain DPS an AC10 if you get lucky with the jam RNG, but good luck with that stare time as you get torn apart in a fight for not twisting.

To everyone who defends the blinding at the level it is, shots from RACs shouldn't blind like they're full AC shots, since their damage per projectile is so much lower. The size of the shot and level of blinding should be reflective of the damage it does per hit I think.

[Dee Eight]

BTGbullseye, on 25 July 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

So, you came across someone who didn't do well with the RAC5 once, and it means that they are all always fine as-is in all situations ever?

No...i've come across many such occurrences. That was simply the most recent that I described. I've danced circles around a mauler someone put a pair of RAC/5s into to the same result. Dead mauler. Live roughneck-reaver. Until they introduce mechs with RAC jam chance quirks, they're going to remain a situational weapon with limited uses other than new players being thrilled / frightened. They're like LRMs in that respect... the times you'll find a player who uses them properly will be a lot fewer than the times you find a player who uses them improperly.

[BTGbullseye]

I seriously doubt that you've played against many who have had these weapons long enough to be truly proficient with them... They have only been out for a week.

You seem to think that your limited experience is all there is to this game.

[Dee Eight]

BTGbullseye, on 26 July 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

I seriously doubt that you've played against many who have had these weapons long enough to be truly proficient with them... They have only been out for a week.

You seem to think that your limited experience is all there is to this game.

I seriously doubt you play anywhere near as many games as I do, and thus are not even remotely qualified to speculate on what I've seen in the past week. Between this account and my alt, i've played over 150 QP matches and another 25 FP matches on my alt alone, which is factioned to CNC so I'm facing off against players with RAC's many times each match. And looking at your past 3 seasons of results... you're the one who pretty much embodies "limited experience" in this discussion.

Edited by Dee Eight, 26 July 2017 - 09:16 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

BTGbullseye, on 26 July 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

I seriously doubt that you've played against many who have had these weapons long enough to be truly proficient with them... They have only been out for a week.

You seem to think that your limited experience is all there is to this game.

It doesn't take much practice to be proficient with them. You use them the same way you would any other ballistics DPS 'Mech, except you completely eliminate actions that would have you trading snapshots since you cannot physically do it. Ez, pz.

I will grant you one thing, though; most players still aren't proficient with other ballistic DPS builds despite having had 3-5 years to figure it out.

[CraneArmy]

Doomerang, on 24 July 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Fix the RAC. Nobody has fun when one player can hold down a button and ******* blind you for 10 seconds by hitting you anywhere on the front of your mech.

It redlines in 5 seconds, maybe you get 6 out of it total if you're lucky

Doomerang, on 24 July 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

The amazing damage and ammo efficiency is already enough of a benefit to make it an OP weapon without adding perma-blind to the target.

ammo efficiency is good. the RAC5 has about the same firing time per ton as the ac2, while the rac2 is about double. the damage per ton for both is about the same as the ac10's. The dps seems high, based on the patch notes, but when you consider it can only fire for about 6 seconds and then go on a 10 second cooldown, your effective dps goes down to 1/3 of what is on the patch notes.

The good part of RAC's is that they are great dps for those 5 seconds, then you get a moment to spin down, cool down and find a new position, and poke again for another ~50 damage (100 if you are running 2x rac5's ).

But for that ability to peak, poke and run, you are paying a very large premium in weight compared to other AC's (somewhat offset by the ammo count), and a large premium in heat, which also negates the ability to effectively use other weapons while using the RAC.

The blinding and minor shake that you get on the wrong side of a RAC is also common for chainfired missles, mrm's, ac5's and ac2's, and can be somewhat mediated by going into the operations tree. And is something you learn to play with.

Even with the ability to do 100 spray damage over 5 seconds with 2 rac5's, this apparent strength seems to be moderated again by mad cat mkII's can now do that with a single 1.5 second alpha (1.5 is shorter than 5, if you needed help), which unlike the rac's which spray can actually be pinpointed by a good pilot.

The rac's are "okay" on mediums and small heavies. They do have utility, but they are more bark than bite.

Doomerang, on 25 July 2017 - 04:16 AM, said:

Exactly the kind of nothing response I'd expect from a non-tier 1 noob.

and this is exactly the kind of attitude that is going to get completely ignored by pgi.
The teir system is just a glorified XP bar, it literally means nothing other than "this player has been playing quick plays for at least a year".

edit: typos, there are probably more but for clearity...

Edited by CraneArmy, 27 July 2017 - 03:08 AM.

[Doomerang]

I don't care if PGI ignores me at this point. There are so many ignorant, bad players patting themselves on the back for winning with OP equipment, all of whom come to the forums to whiteknight for their overpowered gear because they feel threatened when they read anything that makes them feel like maybe they're playing with a handicap, that the voices of reason will never be heard. Besides, this lot is never going to be civil. I can throw real hard numbers and carefully worded arguements all day, and the first ten replies will be "You R NoooBBB" and nine posts replying to that voicing agreement because it tickles them to do so.

I'm just here giving my feedback. RACs are OP garbage the way they're in right now. And now I have no doubt that you will collectively resume taking turns between making ad hominem retorts and manufacturing compliments to people who agree with you to try to offset the sheer amount of crazy and vitriol being spewed at a long time player who has a balance concern that you don't feel comfortable considering, despite the fact that you came in here to read this which noone is forcing you to do.

[The6thMessenger]

Doomerang, on 24 July 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Fix the RAC. Nobody has fun when one player can hold down a button and ******* blind you for 10 seconds by hitting you anywhere on the front of your mech. The amazing damage and ammo efficiency is already enough of a benefit to make it an OP weapon without adding perma-blind to the target.

Edit: But I strongly encourage the devs to play 10 1v1 duels and be on the receiving end of blinding RAC spam just to see how much fun it adds to the game and how competitive they feel they are when a super high DPS weapon is being used against them and there is no way for them to see what the **** is actually happening.

Garbage? Yes.

Overpowered? No. They are as overpowered as LRMs are. Damage easily spread, low velocity to direct the stream, requires spin-up time that decreases reactivity and prevents immediately firing that it requires to be practiced away. Good damage requires immense face-time too. And the RNG even if you are lucky enough to shoot for so long, you are still risking too much by presenting a target that can be vaporized by good aim.

Quite simply, they flourish more on targets making mistakes such as being out of position or staring back, than the player being actually good. And even then, that immense face-time is a mistake in itself, so really the RAC user is much more endangered.

Yes they are garbage, not because they are weak, but in need of a tweak, a revision. If you're being peppered to death by a bad weapon, what does that say about you?

What you think you're just supposed to ignore an RAC stream?

You know what, i agree, the RAC shells should look like MG hit + AC2 hit, with a waaay smaller shell than what they have right now. But If you're being bothered by that, touching the RAC won't solve the problem of you being out of position.

But they are not overpowered garbage. They're just garbage.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 July 2017 - 06:23 PM.

[Greyboots]

Doomerang, on 24 July 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Fix the RAC. Nobody has fun when one player can hold down a button and ******* blind you for 10 seconds by hitting you anywhere on the front of your mech. The amazing damage and ammo efficiency is already enough of a benefit to make it an OP weapon without adding perma-blind to the target.

Edit: But I strongly encourage the devs to play 10 1v1 duels and be on the receiving end of blinding RAC spam just to see how much fun it adds to the game and how competitive they feel they are when a super high DPS weapon is being used against them and there is no way for them to see what the **** is actually happening.

I get where you're coming from but RACs are fine for the most part. Yeah, big DPS but only in bursts, jams up and fires on a spread. Burst-fire weapons are supposed to have silly DPS, especially when they have this many limitations.

For all their on-paper benefits I think I have them on 2 mechs that I would consider "functional". The way the game is, standard ACs and UACs are simply better in the long run no matter how powerful RACs are in short bursts. RACs are just too unreliable and can leave you with zero defence and even staring at a mech with an open CT and not being able to kill it .

They're armour strippers and "let's do team damage as noobs walk through our line of fire" weapons like MRMs are. Too situational for much but the QP queue and even then you have to get a bit lucky.

I agree that they put a stupid amount of rubbish on your screen but considering how unreliable they are overall it's kind of needed to make them worth using. I wouldn't object to a reduction in on-screen spam in return for letting LBX spread skills working on RACs to some balanced degree.

[BTGbullseye]

Sure they fire on a spread, but it's tighter than LBX10 for quadruple the dps at similar ranges.

UACs are NOT better than RAC5s, as right now RAC5s do way more DPS, and have comparable jam (with no negatives, it doesn't do a cooldown after unjamming like UACs do, plus it only even has a chance to jam after filling the jam bar, unlike the UACs that sometimes jam when not double-shotting) and cooldown times. (just all at once instead of spread out across a dozen firings) The heat generation is even pretty close to comparable as well. (again, all at once instead of spread over time)

[CraneArmy]

Doomerang, on 27 July 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

I don't care if PGI ignores me at this point. There are so many ignorant, bad players patting themselves on the back for winning with OP equipment,

except its not OP, as I detailed in the post.

Doomerang, on 27 July 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

all of whom come to the forums to whiteknight for their overpowered gear because they feel threatened when they read anything that makes them feel like maybe they're playing with a handicap, that the voices of reason will never be heard.

tbh, I dont like the racs, I am dissappointed with them. I'm still running laser vom which after the heat buffs to IS std's is nuts. I just dropped a new personal best CW score 3 times in the last 4 days and all 3 were with laser vom.

Doomerang, on 27 July 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

Besides, this lot is never going to be civil. I can throw real hard numbers and carefully worded arguements all day, and the first ten replies will be "You R NoooBBB" and nine posts replying to that voicing agreement because it tickles them to do so.

I feel like I was being civil. and I dont feel like you have made any carefully worded arguments I havent responded to. Regardless, if you want to throw the hard numbers at me, go for it, I love it!

Doomerang, on 27 July 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

I'm just here giving my feedback. RACs are OP garbage the way they're in right now. And now I have no doubt that you will collectively resume taking turns between making ad hominem retorts and manufacturing compliments to people who agree with you to try to offset the sheer amount of crazy and vitriol being spewed at a long time player who has a balance concern that you don't feel comfortable considering,

Look at the posts you have made in this thread and tell me who is making the ad-hominem attacks and calling people noobs?
"Exactly the kind of nothing response I'd expect from a non-tier 1 noob."
literally your second post in this thread

The reason you are getting salt is because you arnt being constructive perfectly exemplified by the same post I just mentioned.

Honestly I dont care right now, whether PGI nerfs or buffs them, because I dont use them. I also dont think PGI is going to do it based on this thread, because however much data you think you have, PGI has more.
I'm sure of this.
I'm only here to try to put some reason into this thread because it seems to be missing.

[CraneArmy]

BTGbullseye, on 27 July 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

Sure they fire on a spread, but it's tighter than LBX10 for quadruple the dps at similar ranges.

I think we can agree that the rac2/5 are most easilly comparable to the LB-X5/10 so for this post assume I'm correlating those weapons.

BTGbullseye, on 27 July 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

UACs are NOT better than RAC5s, as right now RAC5s do way more DPS,

not really though. If you look at the spindown / jam like a cooldown you get a rational dps number that falls in line with the rest of the AC's. If you take the RAC5 the spindown bar effectively takes twice as long to cooldown as it does to fire, meaning if you ignore heat you can fire a 5 second burn (the amount of time it takes you to redline after the ~1 second spinup), every 16 seconds. this puts your effective dps @ 3.3-3.4 which is LESS THAN the LB-X10 @ 4.0. The LB-X10 also beats it dps/ton even if you include a reasonable ammo count for both weapons (wich is probably .5-1ton less than the LB-X10).

Likewise its reasonably comparable to the Heavy LL and IS LPL If you consider the 5 second rac burn to laser burn damage. The rac's burn is far longer but the burn DPS is less on the RAC5 than either the HLL or the LPL which also crush the RAC5 on DPS/ton.

BTGbullseye, on 27 July 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

and have comparable jam (with no negatives, it doesn't do a cooldown after unjamming like UACs do,

I mean the jam chance itself is a completely different mechanic on the RAC's but you are right in that jamming a RAC might as well be the exact same thing as letting it cooldown on its own, its exactly the same time. However you are slightly mistaken about the cooldown after jamming with UAC's. I'm not sure how recent this was added, but I dont think it was very long ago (I never noticed it before sciencing Civil war tech), but at least the IS UAC10's "cooldown" after jamming begins exactly at the point where it was double tapped, meaning there is effectively no additional penalty other than the jam itself. I cant say for sure this is true across the line of UAC's but I think this is a good mechanic that depreciates macros. I suspect its true at least for the Civil War tech UAC's.

BTGbullseye, on 27 July 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

plus it only even has a chance to jam after filling the jam bar, unlike the UACs that sometimes jam when not double-shotting)

This was a bug, it is supposedly fixed.
https://mwomercs.com...ul2017#gameplay
under "ballistics"
" Clan and IS UAC Weaponry: Fixed an issue where weapon jams could occur when holding down the fire button."

havent noticed it since Civil war tech, but ya that was annoying.

BTGbullseye, on 27 July 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

and cooldown times. (just all at once instead of spread out across a dozen firings) The heat generation is even pretty close to comparable as well. (again, all at once instead of spread over time)

The long cooldown times are great, its the best asset of the weapon, gives time to reposition and retarget, same thing with the heat concentration in one burst (not unlike a high alpha laser vom mech). But the heat is not great. Its reasonable (even slightly better) compared with all of the IS UAC's except the UAC5 which is way better than the rest.
But the heat is not good at all compared to the other AC's, which still have better or comparable DPS (granted, with much less time to reposition),. but the ability to Boat many more UAC2's or UAC'5 makes the RAC's best suited for lighter mechs, the lighter the better. The lightest mech you could reasonably put 2 RAC5's on is probably the rifleman since none of the 50-55 tonners have multiple ballistic arms / torsos (IIRC), and a 45 tonner like the blackjack would be giving up too much for it to be a reasonable platform.

In order to to spike the heat that much over the 5 second burst (like a laser vom mech), there isnt going to be much room for additional weapon heat, meaning 2 RAC's + other stuff isnt really ever going to be a thing, again lending the RAC's to smaller mechs that will ONLY carry a RAC or two + a couple token ML for if they run out of ammo.

All that being said, its a great weapon for a support mech, you could run something like a slow shadowhawk (no xl with 2 RAC5's) or a rifleman with 2 RAC5s in with your assaults and heavys so you dont get focused and you should put up decent numbers. But its really only ever going to be strong in that role. They have a niche where they are strong, and several where they are weak, and they are definitely not gamebreaking.

Edited by CraneArmy, 28 July 2017 - 01:26 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

CraneArmy, on 28 July 2017 - 01:17 AM, said:

not really though. If you look at the spindown / jam like a cooldown you get a rational dps number that falls in line with the rest of the AC's. If you take the RAC5 the spindown bar effectively takes twice as long to cooldown as it does to fire, meaning if you ignore heat you can fire a 5 second burn (the amount of time it takes you to redline after the ~1 second spinup), every 16 seconds. this puts your effective dps @ 3.3-3.4 which is LESS THAN the LB-X10 @ 4.0. The LB-X10 also beats it dps/ton even if you include a reasonable ammo count for both weapons (wich is probably .5-1ton less than the LB-X10).

I actually made some calculations based on the available API.

The6thMessenger, on 20 July 2017 - 09:36 PM, said:

> Shooting responsibly -- that is stopping immediately when the gauge is full, the RAC5 does 3.41 DPS, the RAC2 does 1.9097 DPS, with full 6s of firing + spin-time.

> At 3.7% jam chance, has average of 27 shots over red before jamming

> RAC5 does monstrous EDPS ("effective DPS" which accounts jam), at 4.82 - so much higher over AC10 despite 2-tons lighter

> RAC2 does little EDPS, at 2.64 - even lower than AC2 despite being 2-tons heavier

Edited by The6thMessenger, 28 July 2017 - 02:58 AM.

[Ryue]

The6thMessenger, on 28 July 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

I actually made some calculations based on the available API.

Did you also take the cooldown time after each shot (aka salvoe) into account for the dps?

[Alienized]

and while everyone moans and complains, i still play my victor with old weapons and just kill stuff. no matter what.

kinda funny to see so many people crying about tech lol.

[The6thMessenger]

Ryue, on 28 July 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Did you also take the cooldown time after each shot (aka salvoe) into account for the dps?

You mean jam-time/dissipation? Yes.

[Aiden Skye]

Doomerang, on 25 July 2017 - 04:16 AM, said:

Exactly the kind of nothing response I'd expect from a non-tier 1 noob.

Clan only, FP only, Tier 1 player here. Does my resume meet your stringent demands?

He's right though. Yes it sucks to be blinded and it could be looked at. But most of the time you barely take any damage if you keep moving and aren't standing in the open. The spread on those weapons combined with the fact that their projectiles are slower and can be dodged from distance, usually means the RAC spammer usually takes a lot more damage in return if you lay into him with with some good old school laser vomit and get back into cover. AC5 boats are a lot more frightening TBH.

Also RAC's are terrible against anything that can poke. Exploit this weakness.

Edited by W A R K H A N, 29 July 2017 - 03:53 AM.