108 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

SuperFunkTron, on 27 July 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

One last concept I want to throw out there more as a discussion point to consider its viability is Faction Specific Quirks. It would be built on Faction Specific Mechs and it would provide quirks only to those mechs specific to said faction. An example of the concept would be Davion receiving some positive quirks to their ballistics, maybe some extra ammo, reduced jamming, slight range buff... something to give them a slight edge in their lore inspired specialty. Steiner could gain a slight armor buff or maybe an allowance of some extra tonnage (maybe at the expense of a small speed nerf)

An example from the Clan side would be Clan Wolf having a slight speed buff (they are best known for their use of faster mechs) or Jade Falcon getting boosts to their jump jets and agility.

The goal is to further faction identity and to encourage players of a specific faction to utilize their lore influenced strengths. Spreading the same abilities across both sides of the tech divide would allow us to maintain balance in the IS vs Clan conflict and would also create very interesting combinations during battles, especially if players of different factions combined their groups to reap the benefits of each player's faction quirks.

Certain quirks would obviously be deemed more beneficial than others and thus quirk percentages could be adjusted to balance that out.

Boiled down, the idea is to create a more interesting environment and further develop Faction character so that the banners gain more meaning and may even help guide newer players by having them join a group that focus on a smaller scope of play style than jumping into the current endless possibility pit we have.

I think PGI abandoned faction quirks because of population bandwagon issues

[Ripper X]

SuperFunkTron, on 27 July 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

One last concept I want to throw out there more as a discussion point to consider its viability is Faction Specific Quirks. It would be built on Faction Specific Mechs and it would provide quirks only to those mechs specific to said faction. An example of the concept would be Davion receiving some positive quirks to their ballistics, maybe some extra ammo, reduced jamming, slight range buff... something to give them a slight edge in their lore inspired specialty. Steiner could gain a slight armor buff or maybe an allowance of some extra tonnage (maybe at the expense of a small speed nerf)

An example from the Clan side would be Clan Wolf having a slight speed buff (they are best known for their use of faster mechs) or Jade Falcon getting boosts to their jump jets and agility.

The goal is to further faction identity and to encourage players of a specific faction to utilize their lore influenced strengths. Spreading the same abilities across both sides of the tech divide would allow us to maintain balance in the IS vs Clan conflict and would also create very interesting combinations during battles, especially if players of different factions combined their groups to reap the benefits of each player's faction quirks.

Certain quirks would obviously be deemed more beneficial than others and thus quirk percentages could be adjusted to balance that out.

Boiled down, the idea is to create a more interesting environment and further develop Faction character so that the banners gain more meaning and may even help guide newer players by having them join a group that focus on a smaller scope of play style than jumping into the current endless possibility pit we have.

I like the idea but how would you obtain the mech. What would stop someone to hop factions to get more. Possible fix would these bonus quirks only show up when you play that specific faction. I think only way to get these mech would be through FW in some way. Earn it by playing for such faction for awhile.

Oh maybe a Hero version and a standard version you can earn in some way. Same loadout and bonus quirks and possibly same Loyalty bonus of some sort. Hero of course unique camo and paint and +30% cbill boost. I think mercs should get options to get and use these mechs too. Tied to whatever faction they are playing for. But also make them different from loyal units in some way.

Edited by Ripper X, 27 July 2017 - 09:16 PM.

[SuperFunkTron]

Ripper X, on 27 July 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

I like the idea but how would you obtain the mech. What would stop someone to hop factions to get more. Possible fix would these bonus quirks only show up when you play that specific faction. I think only way to get these mech would be through FW in some way. Earn it by playing for such faction for awhile.

The idea is to only have those quirks only work if you are using a particular chassis while associated aligned with said faction. Example would be Linebacker only getting Wolf specific quirks when used by a player fighting for Wolf while a Jade Falcon pilot would get the JF quirks only. Clan Wolf pilots would get no quirks on the Night Gyr as it is an atypical mech for them.

I hope that clarifies the idea.

Kin3ticX, on 27 July 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

I think PGI abandoned faction quirks because of population bandwagon issues

Did they consider the idea previously? I haven't heard anything about it but I can definitely see the band wagon thing being an issue.

[Kin3ticX]

SuperFunkTron, on 27 July 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

Did they consider the idea previously? I haven't heard anything about it but I can definitely see the band wagon thing being an issue.

Russ has mentioned it as far back as 2015. He also talked about giving us faction specific weapons.

[Dru The Blue]

I do not care what toni thinks about this game. He popped back up around the civil war patch but legit hasn't played in the last year-ish at all. Not to mention that little maple syrup flavored temper tantrum he threw when he booted all the members of his previous unit and gave away all the MC in the coffers to whomever happened to be on when he decided MS was his idea and the other 400 members in it didn't matter.

[Ripper X]

SuperFunkTron, on 27 July 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

The idea is to only have those quirks only work if you are using a particular chassis while associated aligned with said faction. Example would be Linebacker only getting Wolf specific quirks when used by a player fighting for Wolf while a Jade Falcon pilot would get the JF quirks only. Clan Wolf pilots would get no quirks on the Night Gyr as it is an atypical mech for them.

I hope that clarifies the idea.

Did they consider the idea previously? I haven't heard anything about it but I can definitely see the band wagon thing being an issue.

Oh I see. I think having an entire chassis have these faction quirks might be a bit much. I can see one variant of several different chassis have faction quirks. I think that might be a bit more manageable.

[SuperFunkTron]

Ripper X, on 27 July 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

Oh I see. I think having an entire chassis have these faction quirks might be a bit much. I can see one variant of several different chassis have faction quirks. I think that might be a bit more manageable.

That would be the ideal, but then comes the lore digging of which variants of a specific chassis was used by which factions. That wouldn't be so bad until you end up with a few factions with substantially fewer mechs to choose from and a new type of imbalance arises.

A few solutions to that could varying percentages based to make groups with less options more desirable, tell those with less to just suck it up, or offer larger rewards for dealing with fewer options. A mix of the ideas could even be implemented. I like the idea of starting with Faction Specific Mechs as a first step because it could help provide some performance data before jumping into the deeper water of Faction Quirks

[Kin3ticX]

Dru The Blue, on 27 July 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

I do not care what toni thinks about this game. He popped back up around the civil war patch but legit hasn't played in the last year-ish at all. Not to mention that little maple syrup flavored temper tantrum he threw when he booted all the members of his previous unit and gave away all the MC in the coffers to whomever happened to be on when he decided MS was his idea and the other 400 members in it didn't matter.

Antonius Rex was a key CW unit leader that quit CW the day PGI dropped Phase 3. That makes him the perfect outsider.

We are not here to blow some smoke up you know what. Credit where credits due but also tell it straight. We certainly wont make it into some kind of special fan boy club doing this.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 27 July 2017 - 09:42 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Faction quirks wont work unless taking lore build mechs. You want to bring lore builds, fine, dont expect any mercy from those with meta builds that will spank you into next week. Unless PGI gets rid of the mech lab, lore stuff is out the window except for private lobbies. Sorry, I know this isnt what you want to hear but it is reality.

It will also create a whole raft of new balance issues and PGI and balance arent the best of friends.

[SuperFunkTron]

Carl Vickers, on 27 July 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

Faction quirks wont work unless taking lore build mechs. You want to bring lore builds, fine, dont expect any mercy from those with meta builds that will spank you into next week. Unless PGI gets rid of the mech lab, lore stuff is out the window except for private lobbies. Sorry, I know this isnt what you want to hear but it is reality.

It will also create a whole raft of new balance issues and PGI and balance arent the best of friends.

Could you elaborate on why lore builds are a requirement?

[Carl Vickers]

Lets say one of the mechs thats gets house bonus is a stalker. The bonus is for lurms, all of a sudden, instead of said Stalker having a couple of lurms 10s with which the bonus applies, he decides to use some mech labfu and stuff 4 lurm 15's on, now he is exploiting the bonus and gets a big advantage.

Idea will not work.

The other way it gets exploited is by people flocking to factions that get the most useful bonus's, called faction stacking.

The only way this works is if there is completely inane bonus's that basically do nothing and arent worth the effort to put in, in the first place.

[SuperFunkTron]

Carl Vickers, on 27 July 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

Lets say one of the mechs thats gets house bonus is a stalker. The bonus is for lurms, all of a sudden, instead of said Stalker having a couple of lurms 10s with which the bonus applies, he decides to use some mech labfu and stuff 4 lurm 15's on, now he is exploiting the bonus and gets a big advantage.

Idea will not work.

The other way it gets exploited is by people flocking to factions that get the most useful bonus's, called faction stacking.

The only way this works is if there is completely inane bonus's that basically do nothing and arent worth the effort to put in, in the first place.

The first is hardly a worrisome hurdle. The idea isn't restricted to weapons bonuses at all. Some thing like speed, or improved targeting tech/ ECM, or the addition of a negative quirk tied to the highly desirable quirks are all possibilities. For example, Steiner getting a small armor bonus could be offset by slightly reducing their speed.

[Carl Vickers]

Yeah, people really love negative quirks and whats worse you are forcing it on people just cause they like a certain faction.

People will still stack factions due to perceived most useful quirk. That ends the argument right there.

[Kin3ticX]

SuperFunkTron, on 27 July 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

The first is hardly a worrisome hurdle. The idea isn't restricted to weapons bonuses at all. Some thing like speed, or improved targeting tech/ ECM, or the addition of a negative quirk tied to the highly desirable quirks are all possibilities. For example, Steiner getting a small armor bonus could be offset by slightly reducing their speed.

Everyone would pile into Steiner for the armor, because you'd have to give steinre the armor quirk for it to be lore accurate

[50 50]

SuperFunkTron, on 27 July 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

The first is hardly a worrisome hurdle. The idea isn't restricted to weapons bonuses at all. Some thing like speed, or improved targeting tech/ ECM, or the addition of a negative quirk tied to the highly desirable quirks are all possibilities. For example, Steiner getting a small armor bonus could be offset by slightly reducing their speed.

I like the idea that each house or clan might have some differences that makes them unique, I feel that is something that would add a bit more meaning to player selection and add a bit of depth.
However, I would be steering well clear of anything that involves changing actual combat values such as damage, range, heat, armour and so on.
That to me is a Pandora's box we don't want to open.
This is where a couple of new features, even if implemented in a fairly basic way, would allow us to introduce more faction differences without making a mess of the equipment balance.
Right at the moment, minimum drop deck tonnage is about the only value that could be changed.

But this is really a good example of the limitations we have.
To add some more substance and depth, we need a few additional features or values that we can affect.

Actually, just a quick thought, but there might be possibilities in the modes (Conquest, Domination etc) that could be faction influenced.

Edited by 50 50, 27 July 2017 - 10:32 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

The only idea I like for faction identity is perhaps faction specific mechs costing less for given factions. Even then, it would only be useful for new starters building up a drop deck, once you have the variants you need what do you need/get then.

[Kin3ticX]

Carl Vickers, on 27 July 2017 - 10:34 PM, said:

The only idea I like for faction identity is perhaps faction specific mechs costing less for given factions. Even then, it would only be useful for new starters building up a drop deck, once you have the variants you need what do you need/get then.

Some people want some kind of repair rearm logistics which would also tie into that but thats a slippery slope.

[Carl Vickers]

Kin3ticX, on 27 July 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

Some people want some kind of repair rearm logistics which would also tie into that but thats a slippery slope.

It directly affects those with the least amount of space bucks and skill. Add to that it would force a very specific game play style which would make the game very unfun.

For there to be rearm/repair there would need to be a very strict gate entry into FP which FP cannot afford to have atm and even if there were gate entry restrictions it would still kill game play.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 27 July 2017 - 10:54 PM.

[50 50]

Carl Vickers, on 27 July 2017 - 10:52 PM, said:

It directly affects those with the least amount of space bucks and skill. Add to that it would force a very specific game play style which would make the game very unfun.

For there to be rearm/repair there would need to be a very strict gate entry into FP which FP cannot afford to have atm and even if there were gate entry restrictions it would still kill game play.

Any feature that stops you using one of your mechs would definitely be a problem.
I believe this was how the repair/rearm feature functioned when it was first implemented?
You needed to spend c-bills to fix the mech?

I can see that being a real problem.

[50 50]

Carl Vickers, on 27 July 2017 - 10:34 PM, said:

The only idea I like for faction identity is perhaps faction specific mechs costing less for given factions. Even then, it would only be useful for new starters building up a drop deck, once you have the variants you need what do you need/get then.

Good point.
A Faction mech needs a tangible and useful reason to purchase it over another mech.
But you then need a reason to keep using it.
Given some of these mechs may not be first choice (or perhaps even second or third) in a drop deck, why would we take and then continue to take a faction mech?

Making them cheaper only provides a short term reason.... kind of like a lot of the other features. We've got some good short term reasons, but nothing to really keep that rolling.
So, faction mechs need to provide some other benefit that other mechs do not.
The loyalty point bonus is the easiest answer. +X% LP.
However, even that has a shelf life as the loyalty system uses levels and is therefore limited. (Not long term enough)
So for that to really be worth while we need to look at changes in the loyalty system.
We need a couple of little extra effects that we can work with that will really help add some value to something like Faction mechs.