76 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

Brain Cancer, on 30 July 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

ATMs are amazing as combination weapons with either CLRM or CSRM. Both provide enough tubes firing at the target to hose AMS in your preferred ranges, while adding a punching option you don't have otherwise.

21 ATMs might not get past AMS. If it's busy firing at the extra 30 LRMs I lobbed a second before firing the ATMs (because ghost heat), they'll be the tightly packed 42 damage to the chest I want (along with some LRM love) getting to the target.

ATMs alone are ridden rough by AMS systems. But they're wonderful companion missile systems to other missile launchers, either packing a surprise close range punch or giving you an "SRM" that can harass effectively out to 500ish meters and chase further targets if needed (though inefficiently).



If you can't get ATMs over the hillocks in Polar, you're in a horrible place. Likewise, ATMs encourage "get your own locks", which is required to be a good LRM pilot. Full stop. Anything else is being a parastic lock-humper while firing your missiles without Artemis bonuses for maximum inaccuracy and maximum spread for worst possible damage.

Your opponent peeks out, alphas, reverses. Explain to me how you can get a lock, fire, and have the missiles hit him before he reverses behind a rock.

Bonus if he has ECM/AMS.

[DaMuchi]

Lightfoot, on 31 July 2017 - 12:03 AM, said:

Yes, I find LRMs to be much more advanced than Advanced Tactical Missiles. ATMs are just a nerf bucket, so many nerfs they serve no purpose in MWO. We said as much in the Test phases, but all PGI did was drop the minimum range from 180 to 120 meters.

What would make them work was if they had range related flight profiles. I know they can't make ATM's with the 3 ammos, but they could adjust their flight path to the range they are fired from. Until they are made into something better than LRMs, I will just use LRMs.

You know what it is though? It's PGI fears about missile rants, that's what blocked MWO from actually getting ATM's.

No. what blocked ATMs is the inability to change ammo. Do you know why you don't fire ATMs for 1 damage per missile? It's because of the ammo you get per tonne. 90 potential damage per tonne is too weak to even consider. If there were different kinds of ammo for ATMS, HE/Std/ER, each would have a balanced amount of ammo, perhaps, 60/100/200, respectively. This is the sole reason ATMs are in a silly position of minimum range and a pointless 1 damage per missile range bracket.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Your mechs are too small.

With enough hardpoints, SRM are significantly bettter DPS. Only when 4xSRM6 starts to be too little, can ATM get better than SRM because SRM stops at 6. That means ATM starts to have use on Night Gyr and assults.

And Im not sure if Night Gyr has enough slots for ammo and heat, because it easily gets slot rescricted and ATMs take up a lot of slots too.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 31 July 2017 - 07:53 AM.

[Mole]

You say ATMs are terrible, but my 'mechs that run them beg to differ.

[Bigbacon]

only problem i have with these is the 120m min range..everything else in the game is 90m and I always think it is 90m.

they are just an odd weapon. Like a LRM mated with a SRM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Honeybadgers, on 30 July 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

People with attitudes like yours are pure cancer. Try being helpful instead of poisonous. Stop trying to use your internet anonymity to act like a bile spitting troll and talk like a grownup.

At tier 1, the ATM is terrible. Try it sometime. They are simply too niche for a weapon designed to be modular and general purpose. the 12 is pretty much the only one that can put its damage in, and from what I've seen in tier 1, the MKII is pretty much the only mech that can pull it off. The scorch can't even do it.

They seem pretty decent to me - sure, they can be frustrating to use on a lot of maps, and they almost require jumpjets to be consistently good, but ive had a lot of success with a 3xATM6, 3xERML Huntsman (using hero RT so all 3 ATMs are in Torso) and a 3xATM9 + 2xLPL + Tag Supernova. 2xATM9 Shadow Cat is also fun (to whoever said 3xATM6 on SCat.. that would mean not having lower arm actuators. Giving up LAAs with lock on weapons is very silly, imo, since the lock is always managed by the arm crosshair, regardless of where the weapons are mounted)

For me at least, they have opened up a load of mechs/omnipods that id never have used before, because i dont like the SRM playstyle (im not saying its bad, i just dont like it) and LRMs are bad, so previously missile hardpoints were just dead to me.

[Bigbacon]

Brain Cancer, on 30 July 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

ATMs are amazing as combination weapons with either CLRM or CSRM. Both provide enough tubes firing at the target to hose AMS in your preferred ranges, while adding a punching option you don't have otherwise.

21 ATMs might not get past AMS. If it's busy firing at the extra 30 LRMs I lobbed a second before firing the ATMs (because ghost heat), they'll be the tightly packed 42 damage to the chest I want (along with some LRM love) getting to the target.

ATMs alone are ridden rough by AMS systems. But they're wonderful companion missile systems to other missile launchers, either packing a surprise close range punch or giving you an "SRM" that can harass effectively out to 500ish meters and chase further targets if needed (though inefficiently).



If you can't get ATMs over the hillocks in Polar, you're in a horrible place. Likewise, ATMs encourage "get your own locks", which is required to be a good LRM pilot. Full stop. Anything else is being a parastic lock-humper while firing your missiles without Artemis bonuses for maximum inaccuracy and maximum spread for worst possible damage.

hmm... this make me want to try a mad dog with half LRMs half ATMs and maybe keep my normal narc launcher (so maybe 3xLRM10s + 2x ATM#) My normal mad dog LRM boat is 5xLRM10 + narc + 2 MLs

I may have to try it.

Edited by Bigbacon, 31 July 2017 - 08:14 AM.

[HGAK47]

I loath the things, all they ever seem to do is strip my leg armour off at an alarming pace.

[Widowmaker1981]

Jun Watarase, on 31 July 2017 - 06:35 AM, said:

Your opponent peeks out, alphas, reverses. Explain to me how you can get a lock, fire, and have the missiles hit him before he reverses behind a rock.

Bonus if he has ECM/AMS.

In this situation? you have no hope if your loadout is primarily ATMs, of course, unless your target is a slow assault.

Its not a one v one game though, and they do massive, massive DPS in the right situations, DPS that a peeking mech has no chance of matching.

ATM mechs should obviously have CAP, and ideally Tag (for spread reduction) as well, so ECM isnt a big issue tbh.

[Sixpack]

DaMuchi, on 31 July 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

No. what blocked ATMs is the inability to change ammo. Do you know why you don't fire ATMs for 1 damage per missile? It's because of the ammo you get per tonne. 90 potential damage per tonne is too weak to even consider. If there were different kinds of ammo for ATMS, HE/Std/ER, each would have a balanced amount of ammo, perhaps, 60/100/200, respectively. This is the sole reason ATMs are in a silly position of minimum range and a pointless 1 damage per missile range bracket.

I don't quite agree with this. The 1 point is usually a wasted point of damage. But in some cases it can be very helpfull to use.
As example to help cripple an enemy that is doing a 1v1 against a ally further away or as a suppressive fire weapon to keep the enemys heads down due to "LURMS".

So there is a point to having it, it just very rarely happens to be usefull.

[Honeybadgers]

I found a single mech that can do damage with them. the ATM48 scorch. It actually can lay down a monstrous amount of damage, bypassing most AMS. But it runs hot, and is arguably not as good as the pinpoint sledgehammer that is the LB40/SRM24A build.

I wonder why we can't just have, in lieu of the in-battle ammo swapping, three different versions of the ATM's that function like they were loaded with each specific type of missile? i.e. a longer range mech can bring the longer ATM's with, and vice versa. No extra "new" coding, just new guns. It's not like they didn't give the IS 400,000 new weapons.

I also tried using LRM10's to tank for the ATM9's on the scorch and it was... okay. Not very effective, but I was able to land ATM's sometimes. The biggest problem is the health (you really shouldn't need a 48 missile barrage to get a usable amount of damage in) and the flight speed. The minimum range is REALLY obnoxious, even 90m would be an improvement.

Because every game I bring a boatload of ATM's into, I leave thinking "I'd have been better as a support mech with LRM's" because I can never find myself in good enough positioning to use the ATM's enough to even come close to depleting 2 tons of ammo per 12 tubes.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 31 July 2017 - 12:21 PM.

[Domoneky]

ATMs aren't the problem. Its PGI. PGI is the problem. The moment you all realize that the better you'll be.

[Khobai]

ATMs are way too lopsided

they do way too much damage at 120m-270m, and they do almost nothing at other range bands

they need to get rid of the min range on ATMs and flatten out the damage so theyre decent at all range bands without being overpowered in a specific range band

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Your opponent peeks out, alphas, reverses. Explain to me how you can get a lock, fire, and have the missiles hit him before he reverses behind a rock.

Bonus if he has ECM/AMS.

ATMs are actually fast enough to dumbfire within about 300m (that is, the same range SRMs are) with accuracy. This also happens to be the same range they do max damage.

I've already given a few pilots the last thing they wanted because they expected the lurmboat to sit back and die, namely about 60 short-range damage to the face. Sometimes I'll even waste a few LRMs just to lure them out into the ATM killbox.

If they got another 40 velocity or so (and LRMs bumped to at least 200), they'd be even nicer. The only way to deal with poke in a missile boat is to refuse to play in the first place.

[Jun Watarase]

Widowmaker1981, on 31 July 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

In this situation? you have no hope if your loadout is primarily ATMs, of course, unless your target is a slow assault.

Its not a one v one game though, and they do massive, massive DPS in the right situations, DPS that a peeking mech has no chance of matching.

ATM mechs should obviously have CAP, and ideally Tag (for spread reduction) as well, so ECM isnt a big issue tbh.

The problem is that most of the game at higher skill levels revolves around peeking. Unless you have a team setup for something else.

For ATMs to shine you need a target in short range, with no AMS/ECM support, have direct LOS (or close to it) and he can't (or wont) reverse behind a rock. Most of the time, this means you are firing on a potatoe or someone trying to kill a gen.

Those requirements are actually worse than the ones needed for LRMs to work.

Ive started using a 3x ATM-9 highlander IIC in quickplay. Ive gotten 1500+ damage several times, but every time, this was against a team of mostly potatoes. And the ever popular RAC 5 hard counters it because a mech with 2x RAC5s and some other weapons will easily eat through a side torso while you are sandblasting him ineffectively at medium range.

[Jun Watarase]

Brain Cancer, on 31 July 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

ATMs are actually fast enough to dumbfire within about 300m (that is, the same range SRMs are) with accuracy. This also happens to be the same range they do max damage.

I've already given a few pilots the last thing they wanted because they expected the lurmboat to sit back and die, namely about 60 short-range damage to the face. Sometimes I'll even waste a few LRMs just to lure them out into the ATM killbox.

If they got another 40 velocity or so (and LRMs bumped to at least 200), they'd be even nicer. The only way to deal with poke in a missile boat is to refuse to play in the first place.

At 200 m/s, i dont think they are fast enough to dumbfire reliably. That's more than a second's worth of flight time, easily dodgeable, especially since your agility is no longer dependant on engine size.

[Aim64C]

Brain Cancer, on 30 July 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

ATMs are amazing as combination weapons with either CLRM or CSRM. Both provide enough tubes firing at the target to hose AMS in your preferred ranges, while adding a punching option you don't have otherwise.

21 ATMs might not get past AMS. If it's busy firing at the extra 30 LRMs I lobbed a second before firing the ATMs (because ghost heat), they'll be the tightly packed 42 damage to the chest I want (along with some LRM love) getting to the target.

ATMs alone are ridden rough by AMS systems. But they're wonderful companion missile systems to other missile launchers, either packing a surprise close range punch or giving you an "SRM" that can harass effectively out to 500ish meters and chase further targets if needed (though inefficiently).

So, the weapon system on its own is insufficient and needs another weapon system to have a chance at damaging the enemy... with all of its niche issues. Why not simply double up on LRM launchers that do not suffer from the minimum range and would saturate AMS coverage even more so?

Quote

If you can't get ATMs over the hillocks in Polar, you're in a horrible place. Likewise, ATMs encourage "get your own locks", which is required to be a good LRM pilot. Full stop. Anything else is being a parastic lock-humper while firing your missiles without Artemis bonuses for maximum inaccuracy and maximum spread for worst possible damage.

This is heavily influenced by the design of the battlemech. High mounted launchers are, obviously, in a better place, here.

Further - while I am not disagreeing that a good LRM player needs to be self-sufficient - Artemis is wasted tonnage, at this point.

Sure - in theory it is a must-have... but the bonuses require continuous line-of-sight to provide advantages. This is a horrible ******* idea in practice. It means you are out of hard cover during the flight of the missiles. The specific advantage of LRMs over every other weapon system in the game is that they can fire over a terrain obstacle. A good LRM player is not necessarily firing at what is directly in front of them - they are putting additional damage onto a target that is not in the main stream of fire for the team (the assault at the edge of the fight that a light is dancing behind).

Good LRM players are putting a consistent stream of damage onto the highest priority targets - forcing them back behind cover or forcing them to take damage. A good LRM build can keep a high volume of missiles in the air against the target - enough to make movements through open terrain a decision that comes at considerable cost.

As such - Artemis is a complete fantasy. Add more ammo for the slots and tonnage it adds - or take along more lasers for backup.

A whole weapons system designed around the principle of Artemis is about as sensible as taking Artemis, itself. There's no reason to ever fire at anything over 500 meters (pretty much even with LRMs - unless it's a fatlass or direwhale), and you're less damage/ammo efficient than LRMs at that range. You then have a 150 meter band of 3 damage effectiveness to manage where you're actually the best missile weapon system available.... if AMS isn't around.

If I'm going to drop 2 LRM 20s of my Supernova or SRMs from my Scorch - a pair of ATM 12s is not what I'm going to replace them with as some kind of off-kick (especially since I've seen heavy AMS cover vaporize an LRM 40 salvo).

[Brain Cancer]

If you're poking and I'm dumbfiring, it's as easy as "put crosshairs on target, pull trigger". People expect missile boats to lock and get lazy poking them, ATMs punish that. At 300m or so, you get the hits. My personal favorite was a Hunchback on Mining. He blows off my LRM arm, I proceeded to reduce his torso to internals in the trade thanks to ATMs. The second time, he didn't even get all the way around cover before half the 'Mech blew off along with most of his guns.

Given, it's treating your ATMs like you're an SRM brawler. Brawlers don't generally poke, they close and when your opponent pokes, you maul them. If you can hit with SRMs, you can hit with sweet-spot-range ATMs and insure trades hurt.

Quote

So, the weapon system on its own is insufficient and needs another weapon system to have a chance at damaging the enemy... with all of its niche issues. Why not simply double up on LRM launchers that do not suffer from the minimum range and would saturate AMS coverage even more so?

ATMs are only insufficient at defeating AMS on their own. They're better at clustering hits, deal hideous damage in their short range bar, and match damage/ton of ammo for LRMs while getting more of that damage into the torso out to 500m- which is about as far as LRMs are accurate anyway. And not everyone carries AMS. Not even close.

Quote

Sure - in theory it is a must-have... but the bonuses require continuous line-of-sight to provide advantages

You only need LOS when firing, an Artemis'd flight won't decluster if you break your LOS.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 31 July 2017 - 03:45 PM.

[Khobai]

To be fair LRMs need a velocity increase. Theyre supposed to be long range missiles not medium range missiles. Ideally LRMs should gradually accelerate upto a much higher max velocity to prevent them from being faster than ATMs at short and medium range.

Artemis could also use a pretty hefty buff to justify the extra tonnage/crit it takes up. At the very least Artemis should increase the critical hit chance of SRMs, direct fired ATMs (it has built-in artemis), and direct fired LRMs.

Also ECM should not grant stealth. Only stealth armor should grant stealth.

And missiles should not give a missile warning unless you have AMS equipped. No other weapon warns you when its about to hit you. Missiles shouldnt either unless you pay for that ability by taking AMS. And that should be the real power of taking AMS. Bet you people would start taking AMS more then.

Edited by Khobai, 31 July 2017 - 03:49 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Missile warnings were put in literally because people couldn't handle THE DREADED LURMS hitting them.

In an era where you can YOLO noscope someone for dozens of damage to one location in a second or so of burn time, it feels silly.