15 replies to this topic

[GweNTLeR]

In its current state, heavy gauss rifle is far from perfection. It has a long list of cons and just 2 pros: Alpha strike and DPH ratio. The problem is, however, for most mechs those pros does not help much.
I made some rough calculations on smurfy and found out, that HG allows for the just a bit smaller DPS (both sustained and max) as AC20 with 2 additional DHS and additional ML on most mechs on its optimal range (hunchie 2H, cat 2k, cataphract-1X and 3L - around 4.5-5 sustained and 10-11 max quirks and nodes excluded). Increase a range just a bit –and the balance moves further to AC20 favor. Just a bit more – and HG is better, but the damage reduction on that range makes it ineffective in terms of damage/ammo ratio (which is the worst of all ballistics by default) and DPS. Cooldown nodes and quirks effects also are reduced (compared to AC20) due to a constant 1s charge time. And right now I’m talking purely about mathematics, excluding all the side effects of HG usage like explosion chance, shake effect (which really complicates secondary weapon usage), additional delay on shooting (it might cost you just 0.1-0.5s to press and lift mouse button, but it still reduces DPS considerably) and just a 0.5s charge hold time(which almost kills an opportunity to charge gauss beforehand even with nodes, since it requires ~1s to twist a torso on 90 degrees and a ~1s to use secondary weapons (ML for example) before shooting HG).
As for Dual HG mechs – they might be dangerous on paper, but in reality – there is no real problem to kill them by spamming artillery (since they are REEEEEEEEEALY slow and some random arty shot hitting back might cause an explosion) or just by shooting them at 400+m ranges.
Summing this all up – I think HG needs some rework. It could be some undirect buff, but it is necessary. The possible solutions are:
1. Reduce the cooldown (to 4.5s at least) to put its DPS closer to AC20;
2. Reduce the charge up time to about 0.75s;
3. Increase the optimal range and reduce maximum multiplier (probably the worst solution, since dual HG mechs will benefit too much);
4. Increase the charge hold time;
5. Increase ammo/ton ratio (5->6 ammo per ton), to justify long range HG shots;
6. Add a side effect to improve gyros nodes: reduce screen shake from HG;
I hope someone from PGI will read it and make some decision.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 01 August 2017 - 01:32 AM.

[DaMuchi]

Gass rifles were never for dps. That gauss rifle had one of the lowest dps in the game but was still used regularly. This is because of pairing 2 gauss and 2 ppc allowed you to blow 50 damage on a single point, this combo was known to be super strong when used correctly. So pgi decided to remove that shinnanigans and gave this 50 pinpoint damage to IS and halved the range. Buffing hg is a really hard thing to do without making another crazy weapon lime twin gauss erppc was.

[GweNTLeR]

DaMuchi, on 01 August 2017 - 01:33 AM, said:

Gass rifles were never for dps. That gauss rifle had one of the lowest dps in the game but was still used regularly. This is because of pairing 2 gauss and 2 ppc allowed you to blow 50 damage on a single point, this combo was known to be super strong when used correctly. So pgi decided to remove that shinnanigans and gave this 50 pinpoint damage to IS and halved the range. Buffing hg is a really hard thing to do without making another crazy weapon lime twin gauss erppc was.

Well, nope, you would not get the same combo as dual ppc/gauss was, unless you boost HG opimal by like 2x. I said, that it is the worst option by far. The combo was OP not because of damage but more because of range (since 60dmg is not that a big number in close).
And dont forget the drawbacks - you can use STD only, and if that thing expodes - you re likely to have 25 damage transferred to CT.

Edited by GweNTLeR, 01 August 2017 - 01:46 AM.

[Zergling]

DaMuchi, on 01 August 2017 - 01:33 AM, said:

and gave this 50 pinpoint damage to IS and halved the range.

Halved the range? It is much worse than that, almost one-quarter.

[StealthdragonB]

One thing I kind of wanted to see for the heavy gauss was is it applying the ridiculous recoil shake effect to those it hits, possibly even for longer durations or more erratic shaking, as it makes sense as a mech can seem to compensate for recoil with other weapons while dealing recoil to the enemy. In fact most missile weapons can deal more impulse than a heavy gauss rifle according to smurfy, such as an IS LRM 20.

It would be a buff that I think would make sense, it isn't a direct buff to dps, but I think gauss rifles just have relatively low DPS as a characteristic, again according to smurfy a heavy gauss has almost double the DPS of a gauss rifle, with 5.00 compared to 2.61, which also gives it superior damage per ton.

[El Bandito]

REDUCE HEAVY GAUSS AND IS LB20X CRIT SLOTS TO 10.

Much needed change.

[GweNTLeR]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2017 - 03:31 AM, said:

REDUCE HEAVY GAUSS AND IS LB20X CRIT SLOTS TO 10.

Much needed change.

Well, dude, that aint gonna happen for obvious reasons. Better try to give constructive feedback.

[El Bandito]

GweNTLeR, on 01 August 2017 - 03:43 AM, said:

Well, dude, that aint gonna happen for obvious reasons. Better try to give constructive feedback.

What obvious reasons? PGI's reluctance to change TT crit values? Meh, given enough persuasion, Chris could give in. And my idea was constructive, as it makes sense.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 August 2017 - 04:59 AM.

[Tordin]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2017 - 03:31 AM, said:

REDUCE HEAVY GAUSS AND IS LB20X CRIT SLOTS TO 10.

Much needed change.

El Bandito, on 01 August 2017 - 03:31 AM, said:

REDUCE HEAVY GAUSS AND IS LB20X CRIT SLOTS TO 10.

Much needed change.

I have thought about this too. At least reduce the slot to 10 for LBX 20
Can balance somehow take damage if those get reduced slot requirments however?

[GweNTLeR]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2017 - 04:54 AM, said:

What obvious reasons? Be more specific. And my idea was constructive, as it makes sense.

First of all, they never changed crit requirement before. Second, PGI tries to stick to lore, and according to it, both LBX20 and HG requires 11 slots. We can talk about crit slot transfer(from one component to another, since it is in lore afaik), but it is not implemented (yet?) and does not decrease a number of slots required.

[Jingseng]

Yes it would be better to throw out the Harmony Gold we have now and start over with them.

[Matthew Ace]

I've got an insane idea.

30. damage. (maniacial laughter)

On a less insane note, Improved Gyro contributing to reduced recoil would be nice, as would be the rocking effect on the target it hits.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 01 August 2017 - 06:29 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2017 - 03:31 AM, said:

REDUCE HEAVY GAUSS AND IS LB20X CRIT SLOTS TO 10.

Much needed change.

Well, If PGI insist that LBX ACs be worse than standard ACs (because lots of pellets spread out for the same total damage as one solid slug is... obviously worse... unless you are shooting at clay pigeons), then they need to follow the LBX10 route of being smaller and lighter. People use the LBX10 because you can fit 2 in ST, they might use the LBX5 if you could mount 3 in a ST with an XL, they might use the LBX20 if it was 9 slots and could fit in a ST with an XL or an arm with lower arm actuators.

Even 10 slots isnt enough to save the LBX20 imo, needs to be 13 tons 9 slots and we might have a deal. LBX5 at 7 tons 3 slots. LBX2 at 5 tons 1 slot. I dont see why following the LBX10 paradigm is a difficult idea, TT BT clearly makes no sense at all when you compare the LBX line to the standard AC line, why is the LBX10 such an outlier?

Changing this will not break ANY stock builds. Just add a ton of ammo to each LBX.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 01 August 2017 - 07:03 AM.

[Metus regem]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2017 - 03:31 AM, said:

REDUCE HEAVY GAUSS AND IS LB20X CRIT SLOTS TO 10.

Much needed change.

I'd rather see the HGR down to 9 crits, with a new hard point type that can only be ST mounted... I will admit it is a rather selfish reason why I'd like to see this done... It's for the Crusader 8S that uses both an isXL engine and HGR....

As for the isLB-20X, it should be 8 or 9 crits, this would at least make it an interesting option when compared to the AC/20 or isUAC/20, as the LB-20X is giving up focused damage for spread. Doing this would also allow for mech variants such as the BSW-1L that is while packing an isLB-20X in the RA, with out the LAA. This would also let us get around the crit splitting issues found on a lot of IS mechs that mount LB-20X's.

[davoodoo]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2017 - 03:31 AM, said:

REDUCE HEAVY GAUSS AND IS LB20X CRIT SLOTS TO 10.

Much needed change.

That aint gonna make it good and id rather have decent 11 crits hgauss than this travesty at 10.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 August 2017 - 07:14 AM.

[Felbombling]

Without shared locations, it makes perfect sense to drop the crit requirements for the Heavy Gauss and LB 20-X. It cannot harm stock builds, as you are reducing slots, not adding them. You have to come to the conclusion that the Heavy Gauss and LB 20-X are some sort of super weapon to conclude that PGI should continue to restrict their use. Beyond that, perhaps the art department doesn't want to add the Heavy Gauss and LB 20-X models to the Mech customization availability for all those Mech variants that a change of this nature would require.

I'd go a step further and reduce the Clan LB 20-X by one crit slot, too, to line up with the Ultra AC/20. It only seems fair, for the same reasons.