22 replies to this topic

[SlyJJ]

I think they should patch up the IS LBX-20 so that it only occupies 10 crits instead of 11. Frankly its a completely useless weapon that I don't think anyone has run (or will) because of its limitations. We can only mount it in side torsos, and can only take a standard engine while we're at it. I don't think anyone would ever complain about the LBX being "overpowered" and right now it does absolutely nothing whatsoever in the IS arsenal. Its a weapon that's so far been guaranteed to have never been purchased by anyone.

So perhaps for the sake of allowing some of us to use it, it'd be much appreciated if crit spaces could be slimmed down a bit...

[Jun Watarase]

The LB-10x was junk in the beta. Its still junk now. PGI is simply incapable of making LBXs good.

I just find it ironic that the LBXs are supposed to be an improvement on the standard ACs but they are actually a downgrade beause of spread damage.

[Metus regem]

Jun Watarase, on 01 August 2017 - 07:22 PM, said:

The LB-10x was junk in the beta. Its still junk now. PGI is simply incapable of making LBXs good.

I just find it ironic that the LBXs are supposed to be an improvement on the standard ACs but they are actually a downgrade beause of spread damage.

If they had their dual fire modes they might be.... And crits would actually need to be more common....

[Athom83]

I enjoy running 2x LB-10 and a LB-20 on my Marauder. Its an acquired taste but its pretty nice when used right.

[DonGardenio]

LBX-20s sound awesome and feel great though. Granted they are actually pretty poop. Clans pretty much need to run the LBX-20 if they want a gun that sounds like a thunderclap. While the UAC20 is objectively better, that takka takka takka is so unsatisfying. Also the 3D model being a pair of anemic looking barrels taped together....

LBXes need more tangible bonuses, and perhaps less pellets for the bigger guns. What's wrong with 5x 2dam pellets for the LBX-10 or 10x 2dam for the 20? Would make it more consistent perhaps and probably be less of a server hitreg nightmare. Instead of some airy fairy increased chance to crit, just give it a flat damage bonus to structure. Somethiiiing.

[GweNTLeR]

Well, its not *completely* useless, it's actually better than AC 20 vs assaults in lots of situations thx to crits and critical damage transfer. Also pretty useful vs gauss users (1 shot=1 gauss explosion). I tried it on SHD-2D with 3x SRM4 and found it doing pretty okay. Mean damage was ~100-150 dmg higher in qp than on my AC20 build, but kills amound was abit lower. In the end, it could be a nice (yet niche) weapon for brawlers. So in the end... I dont think it needs crit reduction. Maybe it needs spread reduction, but not slots.

[Prototelis]

Side thought: Ever have a moment where you tag someone who is open with your lb20 and have enough time to make it around a corner (or otherwise out of visual) before they die from a chain reaction? Love that ****.

[The6thMessenger]

Jun Watarase, on 01 August 2017 - 07:22 PM, said:

The LB-10x was junk in the beta. Its still junk now. PGI is simply incapable of making LBXs good.

I just find it ironic that the LBXs are supposed to be an improvement on the standard ACs but they are actually a downgrade beause of spread damage.

The only reason i'm actually using the LB10X is that it's -1 ton -1 slot over the AC10. Had the LB20X have that, -1 ton and -1 slot over the AC20, I would actually consider using it.

The best upgrade would actually be LBxs in general deal 1.15 - 1.35 damage/pellet.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 01 August 2017 - 08:51 PM.

[Adept Richard III-gamma]

I fully understand everyones dislike about the LBX class but that's Lore for you. Asking to alter the weight or crit wont happen. From a Lore POV, its all about the materials used to construct these weapons. Sure the Clans weapon systems are light only because of the refined state of their materials were as the IS has not/cannot achieved this.

IMO, the only way PGI can fix this is by allowing Standard and Cluster rounds. With only Cluster rounds being the only type, the LBX series will not gain any fame.

I however will still use this type of weapon.

[Davegt27]

only the IS AC20 is half way good

anything else with a 20 next to it is crap

that goes for LRMs also

[Khobai]

Quote

only the IS AC20 is half way good

yeah its half way as good as IS UAC20

[FupDup]

Adept Richard III-gamma, on 01 August 2017 - 08:53 PM, said:

I fully understand everyones dislike about the LBX class but that's Lore for you. Asking to alter the weight or crit wont happen. From a Lore POV, its all about the materials used to construct these weapons. Sure the Clans weapon systems are light only because of the refined state of their materials were as the IS has not/cannot achieved this.

IMO, the only way PGI can fix this is by allowing Standard and Cluster rounds. With only Cluster rounds being the only type, the LBX series will not gain any fame.

I however will still use this type of weapon.

It's funny that the lore "special materials" the IS used to build their own LB 10-X (lighter and smaller than AC/10) were ignored when the other LBX's got released.

[Adept Richard III-gamma]

FupDup, on 01 August 2017 - 10:31 PM, said:

It's funny that the lore "special materials" the IS used to build their own LB 10-X (lighter and smaller than AC/10) were ignored when the other LBX's got released.

Totally agree. In TT, we made a few changes to better reflect that statement "lighter and smaller" Namely the AC20 which we reduced the tonnage and crit by 1. So our LBX20 was 13 tons and occupied 9 crits. For the AC5, we reduced the tonnage again by 1 but kept the crit the same at 4. We felt that the materials had bulk, which reflected that nature. Same with the AC2, reduced tonnage by 1 but occupied 2 crit. For the most part it works on paper. If PGI decided (which im sure it will not happen) I would find more uses for all calibers.

Then again, which brings back to this age old question, when will they figure out selective ammo for this autocannon..?

[Karl Streiger]

Metus regem, on 01 August 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

If they had their dual fire modes they might be.... And crits would actually need to be more common....

when the gun had dual fire it would be worth the "C-Bill" price either but it isn't

Quote

These materials, coupled with a smooth-bore,
multi-munition feed mechanism, make the LB more expensive than
standard autocannons. However, the slight range increase and the
ability to switch between standard-style bursts and explosive cluster
munitions—both specially developed for this weapon system—more
than mitigate this higher cost.

With "existing" rules for Clan STD ACs - the lackluster placeholder of the LBX stuff can go the way of the Dodo.
here some tables - as it is and how it should be changed (all over the board - because there is no reason at all why a LBX should have more crits as a STD AC - and the weight is questionable at best (you need to increase the velocity (the IS LB10X is only worth to be taken because its smaller and lighter compared with the iAC10)

Name	Tons	Crits	Costs in T-Cbills
iAC2	6	1	75
iAC5	8	4	125
iAC10	12	7	150
iAC20	14	10	300
iLB2X	6	4	150
iLB5X	8	5	250
iLB10X	11	6	400
iLB20X	14	11	600
iUAC2	7	3	120
iUAC5	9	5	200
iUAC10	13	7	320
iUAC20	15	10	480
cAC2	5	1	75
cAC5	7	2	125
cAC10	11	6	150
cAC20	13	9	300
cLB2X	5	3	150
cLB5X	7	4	250
cLB10X	10	5	400
cLB20X	12	9	600
cUAC2	5	2	120
cUAC5	7	3	200
cUAC10	10	4	320
cUAC20	12	8	480

Changed

Name	Tons	Crits	Costs in T-Cbills
iAC2	6	1	75
iAC5	8	4	125
iAC10	12	7	150
iAC20	14	10	300
iLB2X	6	1	75
iLB5X	8	3	125
iLB10X	11	6	150
iLB20X	14	9	300
iUAC2	7	3	120
iUAC5	9	5	200
iUAC10	13	7	320
iUAC20	15	10	480
cAC2	5	1	75
cAC5	7	2	125
cAC10	11	6	150
cAC20	13	9	300
cLB2X	5	2	75
cLB5X	7	3	125
cLB10X	10	4	200
cLB20X	12	8	300
cUAC2	5	2	120
cUAC5	7	3	200
cUAC10	10	4	320
cUAC20	12	8	480

[Khobai]

Quote

because there is no reason at all why a LBX should have more crits as a STD AC

In tabletop LB20X was deadly because of engine crits. Firing off a single LB20X could outright kill a mech with an open CT because you could easily get 3 engine crits. Thats why its so heavy.

Crit weapons tend to be weak in MWO because theres no way crits can actually kill a mech. PGI should add engine crits to MWO. That way LBX can be just as deadly as UACs by getting engine crits.

Edited by Khobai, 01 August 2017 - 11:33 PM.

[DaMuchi]

The current game engine does not allow ammo switching and the programmers have left pgi. It is unlikely mwo will ever have ammo switching. Hopefully pgi develops mw5mercs with more foresight and better management.

[Messiah Complex]

I complained about LB20 at first, still wish it was 10 instead of 11 BUT! it is a really useful weapon system. I run one in a Marauder 3R instead of the 2 LB10 it had before and its a monster now. Uac 20 is a best but doesnt have that instant rip off a side torso crit.

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 01 August 2017 - 11:25 PM, said:

In tabletop LB20X was deadly because of engine crits. Firing off a single LB20X could outright kill a mech with an open CT because you could easily get 3 engine crits. Thats why its so heavy.

Crit weapons tend to be weak in MWO because theres no way crits can actually kill a mech. PGI should add engine crits to MWO. That way LBX can be just as deadly as UACs by getting engine crits.

Depends on the rules - i used the TacOps Rule with Crit Chance based on damage (so the complete opposite) more.
While it is tin can opener first cluster second - with this rule its sandblaster first - tin can opener second.
(this is also how MWO crit system seems to work - more or less (with hitpoints for equipment)

anyhow - you can't switch ammo - you don't have concentrated damage and you need to put lots of man-days into the development of a better crit system (this would be available right after the working heat system with penalties) not to forget crit-splitting.

or you drop cost and modify crits - and as we already know it will not break mechs when you drop weight or crits for equipment

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 August 2017 - 01:07 AM.

[Cyrilis]

basically PGI has only taken the values from the technical readouts:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LB_20-X_AC
And to my knowledge they did always use tonnage and crits for a weapon when there was data in the technical manuals.

Imagine the shitstorm this kind of heresy angains the Lore would cause...

I do not see any chance that crits for the LB20 will go down.

[Khobai]

Quote

Depends on the rules - i used the TacOps Rule with Crit Chance based on damage (so the complete opposite)

I would never play with that rule because it makes weapons like LBX totally useless.