25 replies to this topic

[Fox With A Shotgun]

So I got thinking.

How exactly does a 'Mech fire off an Artillery or Airstrike smoke canister? We don't hear a launch noise, or see a 'Mech mortar equipped with a smoke canister shell. Heck, the landing is instantaneous and completely silent. It's also got infinite range, which theoretically allows a jump jetting Shadow Cat in the beginning of the match to jump as high as it possibly can, aim at the enemy team, and drop an airstrike or artillery on them from 3km+ away.

And then we have the second problem. Because it doesn't require specialised equipment to use, Artillery and Airstrikes have been spammed to death. It seems to be a running joke these days that Mechwarrior Online should be renamed Airstrikewarrior Online, or some such. Why not cut back this problem by limiting its use? And at the same time, give light spotters another reason to use TAGs.

I propose that the Artillery or Airstrike consumables be usable only by 'Mechs equipped with TAG. By painting a spot on the ground, they can call down an airstrike or artillery strike. The precision of the strike depends on how long the TAG has been painted on the spot; starting from double the current spread of an artillery shelling if it was lit up for just the shortest moment, to half the strike size if it has been painted for 4-5s.

As this is less visible than the smoke that is currently used to mark strikes, and therefore represents a huge hazard for friendly fire, maybe marking the strike area on the minimap with a red overlay could be used. The enemy would get a voice warning, but only a very rough location instead of the exact strike area.

This, I feel, solves multiple problems at the same time. It would cut back on the current state of strike spamming; it would give a reason for people to use TAGs, particularly scouting Lights and Mediums who don't have LRMs to take advantage of it; and lastly, it would give some interesting possibilities of counterplay to any artillery strike spamming. Punishing the spotter or keeping him suppressed would prevent strikes from raining on your team, which is not possible in the current game where a strike-user could literally use it from out of range of any weapon.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 02 August 2017 - 09:23 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeah sure, my old suggestion was to make new weapons for the consumables, specifically a new tag style laser for calling in airstrikes, but yeah, just attaching it to tag wouldn't be a bad idea.

How do you limit the strikes per match? Still as purchased consumables for individual players on a global team cooldown per use?

The issue I came up against was the notion if they turn these consumables into actual weapons, then they really would get spammed or complained about with global cooldowns.

What I really think the "solution" to how strikes are currently being used, is to add more visual awareness of them, particularly on the minimap, like you mention an instantly appearing canister certainly isn't perfect representation. They could be made more unique and even have better damage rates (or different cooldown rules etc) if they we obvious, area control effects like that. And players would still rack up scores against potatoish players who just refuse to pay attention or move.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Shifty McSwift, on 02 August 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

How do you limit the strikes per match? Still as purchased consumables for individual players on a global team cooldown per use?

The issue I came up against was the notion if they turn these consumables into actual weapons, then they really would get spammed or complained about with global cooldowns.

I think the limit would be the same as right now. Purchased consumables for individual players, if it was bound as a secondary function of a TAG laser. Using one should trigger a global cooldown for the entire team. As it is highly unlikely that a team would have an entire lance of spotters, and a match rarely extends past the 10-minute mark, I think a limit of 1 per person with a global cooldown of 90 seconds should be fair. This gives a maximum of around 6 strikes per match, assuming that a strike was used at first contact and a strike used on cooldown every opportunity afterwards.

If they *do* turn these into actual weapons with just a cooldown instead of being a consumable, then I would think that the power should be heavily toned down. They are lightweight - a TAG is 1 ton - and heatless to boot. They do consume one energy hardpoint, which is fine; but considering that they generate no heat and can drop quite a large amount of pain for no heat, I would think that they should require another component to make them work for airstrikes. Remember that Command Console that IS mechs have? Why not use it for this? And then reduce the number of shells dropped by the TAG, maybe to 1 shell of 135 damage, in a small spread, on a 12-second global team cooldown. Makes it useful for flushing hunkered-down fatmechs behind valleys, but not so useful for blasting the whole enemy team to bits.

Shifty McSwift, on 02 August 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

What I really think the "solution" to how strikes are currently being used, is to add more visual awareness of them, particularly on the minimap, like you mention an instantly appearing canister certainly isn't perfect representation. They could be made more unique and even have better damage rates (or different cooldown rules etc) if they we obvious, area control effects like that. And players would still rack up scores against potatoish players who just refuse to pay attention or move.

Visual awareness of the smoke is always an issue. Currently, the smoke is completely invisible in heat vision - which isn't something that really should happen, considering that smoke is hot! An audio cue, like the drop commander saying 'we detect incoming CAS' for Airstrikes, or 'we detect incoming artillery strike' for artillery strikes, would be really nice to make sure that people are aware of this. On both teams.

[HGAK47]

People are starting to get really good at hiding that smoke too.

I dont know what to suggest with this game anymore, I have such wild ups and downs. Im just going to play for fun and to hell with my performance.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

HGAK47, on 02 August 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

People are starting to get really good at hiding that smoke too.

I dont know what to suggest with this game anymore, I have such wild ups and downs. Im just going to play for fun and to hell with my performance.

If you really want to know how broken the Airstrike marker really is, there's one way of making sure that nobody sees the strike coming.

If one of your enemies pops a UAV, you can put the airstrike / artillery strike ON THE UAV ITSELF. The smoke appears on the UAV - the shells land directly below it!

[HGAK47]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 02 August 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

If you really want to know how broken the Airstrike marker really is, there's one way of making sure that nobody sees the strike coming.

If one of your enemies pops a UAV, you can put the airstrike / artillery strike ON THE UAV ITSELF. The smoke appears on the UAV - the shells land directly below it!

lol wow. Well that gets points for creativity thats for sure. I think PGI should probably look at adjusting how it works at this point.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 02 August 2017 - 09:18 PM, said:

So I got thinking.

How exactly does a 'Mech fire off an Artillery or Airstrike smoke canister?

The smoke is just a courtesy for the person receiving the arty.

You don't need smoke to call in arty or an air strike, nor do you need a laser pointer. You just need a radio and a map.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 02 August 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

If you really want to know how broken the Airstrike marker really is, there's one way of making sure that nobody sees the strike coming.

If one of your enemies pops a UAV, you can put the airstrike / artillery strike ON THE UAV ITSELF. The smoke appears on the UAV - the shells land directly below it!

Wow, must go and try that one out.

[Shifty McSwift]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 02 August 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

Remember that Command Console that IS mechs have? Why not use it for this? And then reduce the number of shells dropped by the TAG, maybe to 1 shell of 135 damage, in a small spread, on a 12-second global team cooldown. Makes it useful for flushing hunkered-down fatmechs behind valleys, but not so useful for blasting the whole enemy team to bits.

Visual awareness of the smoke is always an issue. Currently, the smoke is completely invisible in heat vision - which isn't something that really should happen, considering that smoke is hot! An audio cue, like the drop commander saying 'we detect incoming CAS' for Airstrikes, or 'we detect incoming artillery strike' for artillery strikes, would be really nice to make sure that people are aware of this. On both teams.

Yeah I am with you on this man, not necessarily agreed on the exact specifics of a "solution" but agreed that strikes are in a bit of a strange position and in need of further work in some way for sure.

[Mystere]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 02 August 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

Visual awareness of the smoke is always an issue. Currently, the smoke is completely invisible in heat vision - which isn't something that really should happen, considering that smoke is hot! An audio cue, like the drop commander saying 'we detect incoming CAS' for Airstrikes, or 'we detect incoming artillery strike' for artillery strikes, would be really nice to make sure that people are aware of this. On both teams.

Do we get warnings for lasers, PPCs, ACs, and LB-Xs?

Heck, long ago, we actually used to get a warning when being targeted. But, people loudly and incessantly whined about it until PGI got weak-kneed (again), acquiesced (again) and removed it.

Fox With A Shotgun, on 02 August 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

If you really want to know how broken the Airstrike marker really is, there's one way of making sure that nobody sees the strike coming.

If one of your enemies pops a UAV, you can put the airstrike / artillery strike ON THE UAV ITSELF. The smoke appears on the UAV - the shells land directly below it!

So, just remove the smoke warning.

<I may be laughing, but I am dead serious on the suggestion>

Edited by Mystere, 03 August 2017 - 08:26 AM.

[Ryllen Kriel]

I always just assumed there was a small external smoke cannister launcher mounted on our mechs kind of like flares on modern tanks. No need for a model of the launcher really. I wish Clanners and Inner Sphere pilots had different colours of smoke, and also variations for the type of strike (ex: bright red, dark red or bright green, dark green). I agree that smoke isn't necessary for the aerospace pilots, but the visual reference has always been nice, for both the fighters and especially troops on the ground. It still baffles me how often people still rush into fresh smoke.

[davoodoo]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 03 August 2017 - 12:37 AM, said:

The smoke is just a courtesy for the person receiving the arty.

You don't need smoke to call in arty or an air strike, nor do you need a laser pointer. You just need a radio and a map.

Yeah sure, im sure calling arty on the comms would end up with that kind of accuracy instead of covering 3x3 area demolishing city block.

Edited by davoodoo, 03 August 2017 - 08:31 AM.

[Mystere]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 02 August 2017 - 09:18 PM, said:

Artillery And Airstrike Spotting: Tags

I have some modifications:

• TAG should really be invisible and/or the beam subject to atmospheric conditions (i.e. range, visibility, scattering)
  
• no location-based warning to the enemy
  
• add NARC to the equipment list, at the very least for air strikes

[Shifty McSwift]

Mystere, on 03 August 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

Do we get warnings for lasers, PPCs, ACs, and LB-Xs?

No, but they are weapons equipped on a mech to a specific hardpoint and taking up crit space and weight, so, apples and oranges really.

Mystere, on 03 August 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

So, just remove the smoke warning.

<I may be laughing, but I am dead serious on the suggestion>

Well sure, but it all depends on what exactly they are intended to be used for. If they are supposed to be 40k a piece two shot per game, "free" to equip weapons, then sure, leave them as is, or even go further like you say, and get rid of the smoke entirely, but, does anyone really want that?

[davoodoo]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 02 August 2017 - 09:45 PM, said:

considering that smoke is hot!

Is it really that hot?? lets even assume that heat vision is that sensitive, instead of mechs you would see glowing blobs as amount of heat they vent out is way higher than whatever smoke is producing.

Edited by davoodoo, 03 August 2017 - 08:41 AM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

davoodoo, on 03 August 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

Is it really that hot?? lets even assume that heat vision is that sensitive, instead of mechs you would see glowing blobs as amount of heat they vent out is way higher than whatever smoke is producing.

As a matter of fact, yes, smoke grenades ARE actually hot.

http://www.dtic.mil/...t/u2/474437.pdf

M18 smoke grenades burn anywhere between 420 to 750 degrees C - that smoke should show up as blindingly white on heat vision, given that the background temp of even hot maps is ~100 deg C. Even if the smoke was somehow 'cold' in MWO, it should not be completely invisible. It would show up as a distinct mass of some uniform heat.

Mystere, on 03 August 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:

Do we get warnings for lasers, PPCs, ACs, and LB-Xs?

Heck, long ago, we actually used to get a warning when being targeted. But, people loudly and incessantly whined about it until PGI got weak-kneed (again), acquiesced (again) and removed it.

Well, we have warnings in FW when the Long Tom was around - and that was basically an upgunned artillery salvo every few minutes. Can't see how this should be any different.

Mystere, on 03 August 2017 - 08:33 AM, said:

I have some modifications:

• TAG should really be invisible and/or the beam subject to atmospheric conditions (i.e. range, visibility, scattering)
  
• no location-based warning to the enemy
  
• add NARC to the equipment list, at the very least for air strikes

As nice as it would be to have the beam subject to atmospheric conditions, I do believe that is LosTech. They can't make ammo-switching weapons or mode-switching weapons, and range modifications are dependent on quirks. I highly doubt that they can make a map-dependent range modification.

Yeah, while NARC would make sense, I was reading through Sarna to see if it was actually possible. Apparently, the NARC beacon was only equipped to make SRMs, LRMs and MRMs track to a target, and possibly Arrow IV missiles. It doesn't exactly flag down a place for artillery to hit.

That being said, I don't see a reason why a CAS aircraft can't drop a guided missile on a NARC-marked spot or mech.

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

davoodoo, on 03 August 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

Yeah sure, im sure calling arty on the comms would end up with that kind of accuracy instead of covering 3x3 area demolishing city block.

lmao

Because the guys manning the artillery can see the smoke, right?



https://youtu.be/KdzJWciha4A

Edited by Aggravated Assault Mech, 03 August 2017 - 07:09 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 02 August 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

If you really want to know how broken the Airstrike marker really is, there's one way of making sure that nobody sees the strike coming.

If one of your enemies pops a UAV, you can put the airstrike / artillery strike ON THE UAV ITSELF. The smoke appears on the UAV - the shells land directly below it!

Visual:

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Aggravated Assault Mech, on 03 August 2017 - 12:37 AM, said:

The smoke is just a courtesy for the person receiving the arty.

You don't need smoke to call in arty or an air strike, nor do you need a laser pointer. You just need a radio and a map.

Yup. Well, in modern days, that would be correct. We're talking about guys who make a 3-ton C3 information sharing suite, here - and a 1-ton C3 radio receiver I don't think I could trust them to artillery anything with any precision without a forward observer telling them where the smoke landed first. Probably from a spotting round, which really should be a tracer round and not a smoke shell.

Also, my perception of BattleTech computing technology:

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 03 August 2017 - 09:53 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

You don't need smoke to call in arty or an air strike, nor do you need a laser pointer. You just need a radio and a map.

what if your radio is jammed?

mortars firing smoke rounds is still a commonly practiced way of calling in strikes

Edited by Khobai, 03 August 2017 - 09:59 PM.