43 replies to this topic

[Trenchbird]

Tarogato, on 08 August 2017 - 04:58 AM, said:

HMN (LB, SRMs) ≈ RGH (LB, SRMs)

You run LBX+SRM on your Huntsman?

That's just... Wrong. Ew. The SRMs I get, but LBXs are too heavy to be efficient on the design in most cases.

[Carl Vickers]

Tarogato, on 08 August 2017 - 04:58 AM, said:

MDD (6x SRM6a) ≈ CP-10-Q (6x SRM6a)

HMN (LB, SRMs) ≈ RGH (LB, SRMs)

HBK-IIC (dakka) ≈ JM6 (dakka)

HBK-IIC-A (laservomit) ≈ RGH (laservomit)

NTG (gaussvomit) ≈ NSR (not yet in the game)

NTG (dakka) ≈ MAL (dakka)

EBJ (laservomit) ≈ BLR (laservomit)

MAD-IIC (lasevomit) ≈ BNC (laservomit)

SMN (brawl) ≈ VTR (brawl)

NVA (laserbrawl) ≈ TDR (laserbrawl)






... am I doing it right?

Hmm, one interesting thing I see in your comparisons Tarogato is the clan mechs weigh less than IS for the same role.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Carl Vickers, on 08 August 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Hmm, one interesting thing I see in your comparisons Tarogato is the clan mechs weigh less than IS for the same role.

That's a pretty solid example of why clantech is and was better than what the IS has. 7-slot FF and ES, every 'mech running XL without risk, lighter equipment that occupies fewer crit slots. Why is it at all surprising that you can run builds on clan 'mechs that are 20+ tons lighter than the IS 'mechs capable of running equivalent builds?

Look at double UAC/10s. Clans can run that on a 50-tonner (HBK-IIC) with a bunch of ammo and backup lasers and go >80kph with zero problems. If you want to do that on an IS 'mech (literally the exact same build, 2x UAC/10, 2x ERMLas, 6 tons of ammo), you have to run a 65t heavy with an XL engine and some stripped armor (not even hitting 75 kph). If you want to not die when one ST blows, you have to run a 70t heavy so that you can fit a LFE.

That is why there is a tonnage offset in FP, that is why people complain about faction imbalance, because clan 'mediums can run builds that IS heavies struggle to mount, clan heavies can run builds that IS assaults struggle to mount, clan lights can run builds that IS mediums struggle to mount, et-******'-cetera.

Edited by Alexander of Macedon, 08 August 2017 - 04:54 PM.

[SeventhSL]

Metus regem, on 08 August 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

That line is for what you need to expose over a hill to be able to use your missile hard points with out relying on someone else for target locks.

Yes of course. Thank you. I thought you were basic comparing profiles. Ha ha my bad.

Edited by SeventhSL, 08 August 2017 - 05:23 PM.

[El Bandito]

Carl Vickers, on 08 August 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Hmm, one interesting thing I see in your comparisons Tarogato is the clan mechs weigh less than IS for the same role.

[Chados]

I find that the Uziel and Shadowcat are roughly equivalent in many ways. Both are hardpoint limited, and agile, but fragile.

[Lucifaust]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 August 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

It can't, even while going slower, which is part of why it got the armor bonus.

Bro. I've piloted a most fierce dire wolf for around a year now. Full Torso armor. An annihilator cored me the other day in 3 seconds. Twice, and they were different players. I have a feel for what I am a match for. Usually I can facetank or stare down an enemy while firing, but the annihilator will fill my fat whale frame up with lead faster than anything else I've encountered so far. I'm not saying it's the best mech. But it can go toe to toe with an experienced dire wolf.

[Y E O N N E]

Lucifaust, on 08 August 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

Bro. I've piloted a most fierce dire wolf for around a year now. Full Torso armor. An annihilator cored me the other day in 3 seconds. Twice, and they were different players. I have a feel for what I am a match for. Usually I can facetank or stare down an enemy while firing, but the annihilator will fill my fat whale frame up with lead faster than anything else I've encountered so far. I'm not saying it's the best mech. But it can go toe to toe with an experienced dire wolf.

I didn't say it couldn't compete with the DWF, I said that's why the ANH got the armor bonus. With the armor bonus in place, the ANH actually has the edge in the face-tanking game.

Without the armor bonus, though, the Space Whale kills the ANH in about two shots or the Dakka Whale can out-DPS it without dipping into the double taps (8xAC/2 is 22.24 base DPS vs. the maximum of 18 you can get from 6xAC/5, and you can't feasibly run 6x UAC/5 on the Anni). The gap widens with the double taps. That is simply the cold, hard, mathematical truth.

[Zergling]

Chados, on 08 August 2017 - 06:45 PM, said:

I find that the Uziel and Shadowcat are roughly equivalent in many ways. Both are hardpoint limited, and agile, but fragile.

As someone that has played both mechs, I'd much rather drive the Shadow Cat.

[Chados]

Zergling, on 08 August 2017 - 11:14 PM, said:

As someone that has played both mechs, I'd much rather drive the Shadow Cat.

I'm not surprised. You're a Clansman. It makes sense.

[Zergling]

Chados, on 09 August 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

I'm not surprised. You're a Clansman. It makes sense.

Not because I prefer Clans, but because I find the Shadow Cat to be a much stronger mech overall.

The Shadow Cat isn't a great mech, but the Uziel is in a class of its own when it comes to just how bad it is.

[Vellron2005]

El Bandito, on 08 August 2017 - 03:32 AM, said:

The closest comparisons can be made between Orion and Orion-IIC variants, Highlander and Highlander-IIC variants. The rest are eh...




Yep. Mad Dog is just flat out more useful than Archer cause of one very simple reason.

Well, duuuh, obviously, the cockpits are differently placed.. but the mech plays very similar.. and basically, I clam that the Mad Dog is just an Archer with chicken legs and high cockpit.. the torso is very similar visually and functionally.. And you can run similar builds..

[Lord0fHats]

I think complaining about the height of the cockpits is missing the point. Sure the Maddog can hill hump to get its own locks but at that point you've already surrendered the primary advantage of LRMs; indirect fire. If you're hill humping to get your own locks you might as well be running direct fire weapons, except the Maddog is terrible at hill humping direct fire weapons cause of how low its non-missile hard points are. So really having that higher cockpit isn't really an advantage the way its currently set up. At best it lets you get your own locks which is just actively choosing to play a sub-par weapon without its primary advantage (but then it's kind of the only reliable way to play that weapon without a narc light to back you up, which is why LRMs suck).

When it comes to being a missile boat, hill humping to secure your own locks is defeating the purpose, and if you're running splat the Archer is better than the Maddog thanks to being five tons heavier and having slightly better hit boxes.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Bounty Hunter = Marauder IIC.

-Same Hit Boxes

-Bounty Hunter tends to be a little slower on its top speed but alot more agile and mobile (something like twice the mobility stats of a Marauder IIC).

-Bounty Hunter gets structure or armor quirks (can't remember which) which gives it the same general armor durability.

- Firepower is roughly equal. Marauder IIC has a higher alpha but tends to run much hotter while the Bounty Hunter's tend to fire faster and more often due to being cooler and having lower beam duration.

My Stats with the two mechs are nearly identical and this was before the Marauder IIC got the latest mobility nerf.

[Zergling]

Viktor Drake, on 10 August 2017 - 05:12 AM, said:

- Firepower is roughly equal. Marauder IIC has a higher alpha but tends to run much hotter while the Bounty Hunter's tend to fire faster and more often due to being cooler and having lower beam duration.

What kind of builds?

'cause I fully expect your builds to be either not comparable, or your are totally mistaken about the firepower being equal.

Edited by Zergling, 10 August 2017 - 07:56 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Viktor Drake, on 10 August 2017 - 05:12 AM, said:

Bounty Hunter = Marauder IIC.

-Same Hit Boxes

-Bounty Hunter tends to be a little slower on its top speed but alot more agile and mobile (something like twice the mobility stats of a Marauder IIC).

-Bounty Hunter gets structure or armor quirks (can't remember which) which gives it the same general armor durability.

- Firepower is roughly equal. Marauder IIC has a higher alpha but tends to run much hotter while the Bounty Hunter's tend to fire faster and more often due to being cooler and having lower beam duration.

My Stats with the two mechs are nearly identical and this was before the Marauder IIC got the latest mobility nerf.

8 extra structure points in the torsos does not in anyway give the Bounty Hunter "the same general armor durability" as a Mad-IIc. Nor is the BH firepower close to that of say a Scorch (may as well be consistent and compare heroes).

[Metus regem]

Vellron2005, on 10 August 2017 - 04:04 AM, said:

Well, duuuh, obviously, the cockpits are differently placed.. but the mech plays very similar.. and basically, I clam that the Mad Dog is just an Archer with chicken legs and high cockpit.. the torso is very similar visually and functionally.. And you can run similar builds..

Well yea.... I mean the evolutionary path to the Mad Dog even shows it....


Archer ----> Lupus ----> Mad Dog

Edited by Metus regem, 10 August 2017 - 07:14 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Zergling, on 10 August 2017 - 05:45 AM, said:

What kind of builds?

'cause I fully expect your builds to be either not comparable, or your are totally mistaken about the firepower being equal.

Bud Crue, on 10 August 2017 - 06:04 AM, said:

8 extra structure points in the torsos does not in anyway give the Bounty Hunter "the same general armor durability" as a Mad-IIc. Nor is the BH firepower close to that of say a Scorch (may as well be consistent and compare heroes).

You know I am so tired of arguing this sort of stuff over and over. Go back and read the dozens of threads I have made comparing IS to Clan weapons if you want to know how the firepower works out to be comparable.

As for durablity, they have the same hit boxes except the Marauder IIC has slightly larger ones so when your comparing durability, you have to take into account surface area as well armor values. Also mobility makes a ton of difference. Just being able to stop faster and reverse back into cover faster makes a huge difference if you over extend. Also I run a standard on my BH which means I can lose a torso and not suffer the debilitating effects Clan XLs do when they lose a torso.

Lastly, the OP asked for comparable mechs, I listed two that have had almost mirror-like comparability. I have similar las vomit builds on both and have near identical stats on both including kills, K/D ratio, damage done and survivability, hence why I said they are comparable.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 10 August 2017 - 08:35 AM.

[Zergling]

Viktor Drake, on 10 August 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

You know I am so tired of arguing this sort of stuff over and over. Go back and read the dozens of threads I have made comparing IS to Clan weapons if you want to know how the firepower works out to be comparable.

You mean the dozens of threads were you've been repeatedly proven wrong?

Viktor Drake, on 10 August 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

As for durablity, they have the same hit boxes except the Marauder IIC has slightly larger ones so when your comparing durability, you have to take into account surface area as well armor values. Also mobility makes a ton of difference. Just being able to stop faster and reverse back into cover faster makes a huge difference if you over extend. Also I run a standard on my BH which means I can lose a torso and not suffer the debilitating effects Clan XLs do when they lose a torso.

Lol, you run a standard in your BH and expect your claims of 'equal firepower' to be taken seriously?

Viktor Drake, on 10 August 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

Lastly, the OP asked for comparable mechs, I listed on. I have similar las vomit builds on both and have near identical stats on both including kills, K/D ratio, damage done and survivability, hence why I said they are comparable.

Which ya know... could just be due to you performing badly with the Marauder IIC.



EDIT: seriously, compare a laser vomit Bounty Hunter build; 3x Large Pulse and 3x ER Meds, 300 standard engine with 18 DHS.
To a laser vomit Marauder IIC; 2x Large Pulse, 6x ER Meds, 350XL engine with 30 DHS.

The Bounty Hunter gets 45 alpha with 396-401 meter effective range, 30.38% heat efficiency, 11.70 maximum DPS and 3.56 sustained DPS.
The Marauder IIC gets 66 alpha with 400 meter effective range, 40.91% heat efficiency, 13.99 maximum DPS and 5.73 sustained DPS.

Gee I dunno... that doesn't look much like 'equal firepower' to me.

Edited by Zergling, 10 August 2017 - 08:39 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Viktor Drake, on 10 August 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

You know I am so tired of arguing this sort of stuff over and over. Go back and read the dozens of threads I have made comparing IS to Clan weapons if you want to know how the firepower works out to be comparable.

As for durablity, they have the same hit boxes except the Marauder IIC has slightly larger ones so when your comparing durability, you have to take into account surface area as well armor values. Also mobility makes a ton of difference. Just being able to stop faster and reverse back into cover faster makes a huge difference if you over extend. Also I run a standard on my BH which means I can lose a torso and not suffer the debilitating effects Clan XLs do when they lose a torso.

Lastly, the OP asked for comparable mechs, I listed on. I have similar las vomit builds on both and have near identical stats on both including kills, K/D ratio, damage done and survivability, hence why I said they are comparable.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
-Hamlet, Act III, scene 2

Ya had to push it into the realm of silly. You could have gone with a laser vomit Bounty Hunter (maybe even with an LFE) and laser vomit Timberwolf for a much more reasonable assertion of "comparable" but you went with two mechs that aren't even in the same realm. But by all means if you think hit boxes, agility, speed and one being forced to gimp itself with a std some how is of import to your conclusion that a Bounty Hunters quirks give it the same level of durability as a MadIIc, then you should couch all that in your original assertion in terms of that durability comparison, and not get all bent when your reader doesn't also take those missing assertions and manner of characterization (however absurd) into account.

Edit:
To put it another way:
You know I am so tired of arguing with people who keep moving the f***ing goal posts.

Edited by Bud Crue, 10 August 2017 - 08:46 AM.