Jump to content

High Explosive Skill Is Mathematically Proven Bad (Fix Please)

Balance Gameplay Skills

4 replies to this topic

#1 NimoStar

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 216 posts

Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:26 AM

High Explosive is a skill that sounds flashy because it's percentaje is greater than most "skills" as displayed on the Skill Tree.

However, it's actual game effects are entirely lackluster, and, may I say, Irrelevant.

Each instance of High Explosive on average just ups the damage of missile weapons in 0.072%, and only to internal components, thus not contributing directly to module destruction or to mech kill.

that's less than 0.1% improvement, and only appliable to missiles, while "normal" skills give for example 0.6% better cooldown to all weapons (which actually translates like in up to 0.9% more damage, because reducing is proportionally more than increasing)

The effect of "High Explosive" statedly is to increase the DAMAGE of a critical hit from a missile in 7.5%.

However, missile critical hit chance is so low, and the chance itself that has to present itself for it to be achieved is so unlikely, that this percentaje is rendered moot.

This percentajes are from the unofficial mechwarrior wiki (https://mwo.gamepedia.com/Critical_Hit) :
"Each hit to the internal structure for most weapons have the odds of doing the following amounts of damage:
  • A 25% chance of the damage also causing 1 critical hit.
  • A 14% chance of the damage also causing 2 critical hits.
  • A 3% chance of the damage also causing 3 critical hits."



So we have these critical hits, now we multiply the number of crits by the probability to determine average total critical damage:

25% x 1 = 25%
14% x 2 = 28%
3% x 3 = 9%
25%+28%+9%= 62%

With this in other words we know that criticals by themselves should in theory deal of to 62% average additional damage. But there are other considerations to take.

Nothing else than "high explosive" modifies critical chance or damage for missiles, and all missiles have the same critical chance, so we may leave that as it is for every mech, skilltree, equipment, and mech configuration.
Take into account however that Autocannons, PPCs and lasers have Targeting Computers that boost criticals, and LBX and Machineguns and Flamers come with pre-boosted criticals. None of these mechanics are available for missile slots.

62% average additional damage is the base, but as we shall see, everything diminishes, rather than enchances, this base.

Lets start with the next bit of knowledge:

"Actuators, engines, and gyros also count towards the number of occupied spaces but none of them can be destroyed by critical hits."

So, on average, just about half of the crits is actually damaging something. You have also to take into account that excess damage will be useless to a single component past its breaking point, but we will be merciful and skip that.

So, 62%/2 = 31% of normal damage. For now, the 7,5% increase would apply to that. But it gets worse. Much worse.

Missiles are spread weapons. ALL missiles currently in the game have some form of spread. On most of them it's pretty bad. There is no currently pinpoint accuracy missile weapon, and not even near (as, say, an Arrow missile would be in the original game or the lore).
In practice, this means missiles hit all over the enemy mechs (if they hit at all). Normally already, most weapons have to wear down the armor of the enemy before hitting the juicy interior. With missiles and other spread weapons (but mostly with missiles) , this will mean hitting all over the enemy mech. Other non-missile weapons have bonuses that acount for this (for example the LBX has a much more powerful critical multiplier; over 50% more probability and double critical damage)... missiles don't (even as they had in the original tabletop).
Even if some parts of the enemy armor are stripped, most missiles will still hit the unstripped parts as well.
Hits on armored parts have 0% chance of critical hits, none, nada. Most hits by a longshot even on pinpoint weapons are on armored parts. With missiles this is much more the case.
If missiles have a near-even spread over the enemy mech (such as is explicitely the case with all SSRMs because they track random parts, but also happens with most others such as high LRMs, ATMs, CSRMs, IS MRMs, etc.), and the enemy mech has a single unarmored section at hand, only 1/8 of them roughly will hit that unarmored section. And over 50% of the time you will be hitting at mechs with DON'T have any unarmored section. And even if they do, it is quite probable that they have no equipment on that section; near 50% probability of this being so (center torso with over 80% of hitting the engine to no effect, legs with no equipment, unequipped cockpit, stripped arms only with actuators, unused torsos with no hardpoints etc.). So this is 1/8 (12,5%) of chance of hitting an unarmored section with missiles even assuming there is one , 50% chance there is none to begin with, and another 50% chance that, even if there is one and you hit it, it will contain no important/damageable components.

So lets recapitulate. Last time we said there was 31% extra average damage from criticals. Now we have to divide that by these probabilities.
31% / 8 / 2 / 2 = 0.96% extra average damage. Only to parts. Base from critical hits. We haven't even factored the bonus yet, this is the average extra damage missiles deal from crits over a battle.

now, just now we apply the bonus.
7.5% of 0.96% is ... 0,072%

That's less than 0,1%, one milesimal, of average improvement to missile damage.

We may also consider that damage to parts is worth half as much as finishing damage to already dying opponents... but I won't include that.

Please make the calculations. Adjust the numbers if you will. You may take into account that mechs can have more than one armor sections stripped (though if they are they will still need to die from actual part damage and not from critting components).

I would like that this skill is buffed to be on par with others (+7,5% probability on all categories of dealing a critical hit would be useful for example), and that critical handling is changed (for example: Any crit on an indestructible component counts as damage to the structure, or that gyros can be destroyed and increase screen shake exponentially when gone, engine has health too and damage to it reduces speed and cooling proportionally, etc.)

Than you for your time and I hope this can help improve the game.

Edited by NimoStar, 09 August 2017 - 04:48 AM.


#2 NimoStar

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 216 posts

Posted 09 August 2017 - 03:35 AM

Also I have seen similar complains about other "critical specific" stats, such as the LBX; (https://mwomercs.com...-lbxs-semi-srs/) .
They mention that when a section is armor stripped, it's just as likely to be entirely destroyed (and with it all the components) rather than a single component destroyed being useful.

All in all, the game's criticals system is just plain badly designed. Either you must be able to make a critical on the structure too or you must be able to do damage to other sections/components in other parts of the 'mech with the criticals, and/or damage actuators and gyros and engines as on the boardgame,
otherwise, as it is now, they are almost worthless - even on gauss and ammo that explodes they are destroyed basically on section destroyed, not independently (and that's not even taking into account the miserable high explosive skill bonus)...

Wholesale discussion of criticals will probably need another thread though.

Edited by NimoStar, 09 August 2017 - 04:06 AM.


#3 El Bandito

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 26,736 posts
  • LocationStill doing ungodly amount of damage, but with more accuracy.

Posted 09 August 2017 - 03:52 AM

View PostNimoStar, on 09 August 2017 - 03:35 AM, said:

All in all, the game's criticals system is just plain badly designed. Either you critical on the structure too or you are able to do damage to other sections/components in other parts of the 'mech with the criticals, otherwise they are almost worthless (not even taking into account the miserable high explosive skill bonus)...


Exactly. Current crit system's uselessness is why I advocate increasing LBX flat damage, instead of its crit damage.

#4 Athom83

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Death Wish
  • The Death Wish
  • 2,529 posts
  • LocationTFS Aurora, 1000km up.

Posted 09 August 2017 - 11:00 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 09 August 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

Exactly. Current crit system's uselessness is why I advocate increasing LBX flat damage, instead of its crit damage.

Or, changing "Crit damage" and how structure and components interact so that Components add to structure and crit damage is like a critical hit doing extra damage.

#5 Metus regem

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Sureshot
  • The Sureshot
  • 10,282 posts
  • LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses

Posted 09 August 2017 - 12:23 PM

Thanks for doing the math, I had called attention to this months ago....

Still this is a prim example of PGI over-valuing crit hits, they are too infrequent or too insignificant to actually mater in real play... We see quirks given, skills given and weapons having their critical chance and critical damage altered almost every patch, yet those changes do not make a bad weapon system better (LB's I'm looking at you) nor do they make a bad skill better (High Explosive I'm looking at you), it's things like this that leave me wondering if PGI even plays MWO, or if they do, what level of game play do they see...

I mean, just look at the sorry state of LRM's, many times it has been mentioned how to make them better, I think the best I've seen to date, is a toggle fire mode. Indirect is same as we get now, direct gives tighter spreed and faster speed. Yet it appears that even less code complex ideas have been out right ignored....





3 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 3 guests, 0 anonymous users