25 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

Putting gauss ammo in the exact same place where you put your gauss rifle will reduce the chance of guass being crit-ed. (as I was told)

I don't actually know why or the formula for reduction (if anyone can share, great!), but I am assuming that this is true since almost everyone says that.

So my question...

the problem is that, when you lose that particular component, you lose any ammo not spent, thus reducing the amount of damage you can output from your remaining rifle. (assuming you have 2 or more)

So, is it better to hide the ammo in ct, legs, and heads like other ammo in that case so that even if you lose the 1 weapon, you can still use the ammo in other components...

OR

Is it better to just pad for de-criting the chance of guass rifle being taken out?

I mean, how much of a reduce crit chance are we talking about with each slot of ammo? Would be great if anyone can share the formula for that.

(you could strategize around 1/2 ton ammo/slot to do a sort of a balance, but remember that 1/2 ton ammo is not receiving bonus from +ammo skill... so, there's that)

Edited by razenWing, 11 August 2017 - 12:31 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Damage taken to an open section is randomly applied to internal components.

If you have a gauss rifle and 3 ammo boxes in one section then you have 9 slots taken up (6 slots for Cgauss, 3 slots for the ammo boxes) this means the gauss has a 6/9 chance to be hit while each ammo box has a 1/9 chance. The gauss rifle also has much less HP than any of the ammo boxes and explodes, potentially taking out a side in the process.

If you have no ammo or other components in the side with gauss then it has a 6/6 chance to be hit, meaning that adding 3 slots of other equipment gives it a 50% boost in average survival rate. The other equipment is very unlikely to be crit out before the gauss rifle goes up but is very likely to be destroyed if the gauss does explode.

Most people will use gauss ammo to crit pad since you need gauss ammo anyway, though it works best if you don't have a second gauss, as you could potentially lose all remaining ammo from the side being removed. This is why the superior alternative is to mix gauss with energy weapons such as ERPPCs or massed lasers which require heatsinks, so instead of crit padding the gauss with ammo you crit pad with heat sinks then keep the ammo in the CT and head, or even the legs if you don't take the water cooling bonus.

In this example here: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1f555b6059f6e09
The gauss have a 6/10 chance to be crit in each torso, and in the arm each ERPPC has a 2/8 chance to be crit. Crit padding is extremely effective against any non frontloaded damage build, as those spread the damage over many shots, thus spreading much more uniformly. Meanwhile high frontloaded damage builds will take out any component in a single crit, either instantly critting out an important piece or increasing the chance it will be crit out in the next shot.

[Shifty McSwift]

The slots have to be filled for there to be a comparative level of components to share damage? I would have thought the slots themselves whether empty or dynamic armor or whatever would still count.

Damn, even more reason for me to dislike crits.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Shifty McSwift, on 11 August 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

The slots have to be filled for there to be a comparative level of components to share damage? I would have thought the slots themselves whether empty or dynamic armor or whatever would still count.

Armor, structure, actuators, head components, and empty space are not considered in the crit mechanic, however, engines do take crit damage but nothing happens when they drop to 0 hp. This can make CT weapons some of the hardest to crit out, especially on engines with large numbers of heatsinks in the engine, as all of them can be crit along with the engine, leaving only 2 crit spaces worth of weapons to be crit.

[R Valentine]

Moral of the story, the critical system in this game makes no ******* sense.

[Shifty McSwift]

Dakota1000, on 11 August 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

Armor, structure, actuators, head components, and empty space are not considered in the crit mechanic, however, engines do take crit damage but nothing happens when they drop to 0 hp. This can make CT weapons some of the hardest to crit out, especially on engines with large numbers of heatsinks in the engine, as all of them can be crit along with the engine, leaving only 2 crit spaces worth of weapons to be crit.

Thank you for bettering my understanding of the crit system, but I am not a fan of that idea at all.

It is like the slots count but only if you put equipment there, but not relative to equipment size, even though there would still be structure there to begin with...

Hey can we get some Styrofoam filler items (critpads for short), so we can fill out our precious crit space with anti crit for our gear? Gah, seems so backwards.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 11 August 2017 - 01:00 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Kiran Yagami, on 11 August 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

Moral of the story, the critical system in this game makes no ******* sense.

That's because PGI never finished damage modeling thanks to minimally viable product. It also hurt things with the whole Clan engine bit, because you can't crit engines to death short of destroying entire sections, meaning the broad three-torso profile of an XL wasn't gonna matter unless you burned both sides off completely. Plus, it meant you couldn't even smoke part of the engine for the penalties without reducing that section to zero, while if properly modeled, a good dose of equipment damage could cripple a ST engine without getting it much past yellow.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Shifty McSwift, on 11 August 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

Thank you for bettering my understanding of the crit system, but I am not a fan of that idea at all.

It is like the slots count but only if you put equipment there, but not relative to equipment size, even though there would still be structure there to begin with...

Hey can we get some Styrofoam filler items (critpads for short), so we can fill out our precious crit space with anti crit for our gear? Gah, seems so backwards.

Well, its just that the slots of an armor upgrade can't take crits since its the armor that is bigger itself and you only take crits after the armor is opened up, so critting something that has already been destroyed makes no sense. Also the structure itself is also taking crit damage. Any crit damage done to components transfers 15% of the damage to the structure ontop of the damage you did to the open section in the first place that caused crits.

Some critpads would be nice, currently they cost half a ton to use half filled gauss ammo boxes in places. Giving us quarter ton ammo would probably make doing that semi viable.

[James Argent]

You will, of course, want to max out these pads to block the heavy flow of damage to the most important equipment.

[Shifty McSwift]

Dakota1000, on 11 August 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

Well, its just that the slots of an armor upgrade can't take crits since its the armor that is bigger itself and you only take crits after the armor is opened up, so critting something that has already been destroyed makes no sense. Also the structure itself is also taking crit damage. Any crit damage done to components transfers 15% of the damage to the structure ontop of the damage you did to the open section in the first place that caused crits.

Some critpads would be nice, currently they cost half a ton to use half filled gauss ammo boxes in places. Giving us quarter ton ammo would probably make doing that semi viable.

See (I will probably get laughed at by some here, but here we go >.<) I was under the impression it worked more like the slots themselves occupy individual crit locations, with whatever fills them taking up potential space for the slots (as the structure points the spaces are bound to).

So once armor had been stripped and a weapon hits your structure you would get a result like rolling a d12 with each of the structures slot points representing one of the 12 potential outcomes, with bigger weapons giving a bigger chance to be hit.

Now I can't get the picture of massive air pockets of empty space within a mech out of my head, or if that space is filled with extra armor, why does a component with a weapon in it still have the same armor? IDK, I should stop asking questions lol.

[Jackal Noble]

James Argent, on 11 August 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

You will, of course, want to max out these pads to block the heavy flow of damage to the most important equipment.

Those are Maxi Pads.

[Brain Cancer]

Also, in TT a crit that hits a "no effect" slot will reroll until it does crit something. PGI's "no effects" include things that can actually take damage, which is honestly dumb as a box of rocks.

[Coolant]

don't use Gauss, think outside the box, and use the ammo as a crit buffer

[razenWing]

i think dakota is spot on in his explanation. i'll have to look into whether i can take heatsink out of engines if i have slots available

[Jackal Noble]

Coolant, on 11 August 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

don't use Gauss, think outside the box, and use the ammo as a crit buffer

Haha ...that's awesome.

PS
Stop killing me.

[Knuckles OTool]

My Night Gyr build using some ammo as crit padding. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e94de88f659c67b


Its not like night gyrs twist real well anyway, but it does make you sad to arm block and lose your gauss right away. I like to pretend the ammo helps.

Edited by Knuckles OTool, 11 August 2017 - 02:05 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Always critical pad.

The number of times my component is open but Gauss hasn't blown it apart - always critical pad.

[Star Colonel Silver Surat]

Everyone's having to worry about crits again because of the broken OP light machine guns people are spamming.

[razenWing]

Star Colonel Silver Surat, on 11 August 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

Everyone's having to worry about crits again because of the broken OP light machine guns people are spamming.

Well, its a lot easier of a choice before, you always crit pad. But I think the skill tree add to some dynamics of choice because again... 1/2 does not receive bonus from + ammo skill.

Ultimately, I did the 1/2 1/2 pad + full ton ammo in ct/leg/head for conservation. But then, I don't use +ammo skill, relying more on just carrying enough to cover.

[evilauthor]

While you COULD use Gauss ammo for crit padding, the actual GoTo for crit padding is Double Heat Sinks, especially on IS mechs. Two or three crits covered for a single ton? What a bargain! Especially since DHS helps cool the mech.