97 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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I don't think you understand the problem

actually I dont think you fully understand the solution. because increasing the heat cap on IS heatsinks is only one small part of it. The whole problem is that IS mechs cant use their crit slots as efficiently as clan mechs. which is why ultimately IS are going to need the option for compact heat sinks so they can stack as many DHS as clans. The point is to give IS options: regular DHS for capacity and compact heatsinks for dissipation since youll be able to put compact heatsinks in locations like legs and CTs and carry more of them.

also its not just heatsinks that need to be balanced. every single instance where IS pays more crit slots or tonnage than clans for the same thing needs to be addressed. endo and ferro for example: IS pays 7 extra crit slots and they should get something extra for that.

it also includes engines. for example, LFE weighs more than CXL so it should be better than CXL. and it includes weapons like clan gauss which also weigh significantly less than IS gauss, but have no real downside.

fixing IS vs Clan balance requires far more than just rebalancing heatsinks. thats just a small part of it.

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All weapons can spend there heat but do NO dmg.

yeah if you miss. but the CERPPC's damage can vanish even when you hit. that is stupid.

its not a fun mechanic. like PPCs hitting under 90m and doing zero damage. thats not fun either.

game mechanics that are stupid and not fun need to be removed. period.

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You seem to not understand how OP Dual ERPPC clan poptarts would become with a 30 PPFLD alpha in your face that you wont be able to hit back very well unless you poke with the same.

what are you even talking about? it wouldnt be 30 PPFLD it would still only be 20 PPFLD... even if you fixed splash damage. The PPFLD is staying exactly the same. The only change being asked for is to make splash damage more reliable/consistent.

no one wants to make CERPPCs do 15 PPFLD. thats not at all what were talking about. were talking about how splash damage shouldnt vanish into thin air, not making CERPPCs do 15 PPFLD.

obviously you dont have a clue what the discussion is even about.... so why are you even posting?

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Do you know why they got rid of ERPPC+Guass?

I suggested that they link PPC and Gauss in the same ghost heat group months before they even did it.

So yeah I know exactly why they got rid of it. Im not trying to increase PPFLD and nothing ive suggested does that. Making splash damage more consistent/reliable doesnt increase PPFLD at all.

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2017 - 08:39 AM.

[Koniving]

Khobai, on 17 August 2017 - 03:11 AM, said:

splash damage is pretty damn useless

they need to fix it so half the splash damage doesnt disappear if you hit an arm, leg, or head.

But Khobai, that would be "Splash damage!"
....We don't have splash damage.

We have scripted additional damage that, for some reason, is only scripted to work in peculiar ways.

(We haven't had splash damage since it was taken away from missiles in 2012.)

Of course yes it would be nice if it was scripted in such a way that part of it couldn't be lost in the sauce, but then players would just hit specific areas to try and 'focus' the damage. This is unfortunate an issue with the concept of "scripted" additional damage / scripted "spread."

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 18 August 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

actually I dont think you fully understand the solution. because increasing the heat cap on IS heatsinks is only one small part of it. The whole problem is that IS mechs cant use their crit slots as efficiently as clan mechs. which is why ultimately IS are going to need the option for compact heat sinks so they can stack as many DHS as clans. The point is to give IS options: regular DHS for capacity and compact heatsinks for dissipation since youll be able to put compact heatsinks in locations like legs and CTs and carry more of them.

Compact heat sinks would have to be MASSIVELY revamped to actually be worth bothering with and that's assuming they ever get added (which is a large assumption on your part). Plus wasn't it you bitching about IS having more options compared to Clans for equipment and such? Either way, compact heatsinks would be the only worthwhile heat sink because the dissipation is probably the most important part for IS mechs (you aren't ever going to match a Clan alpha so allowing IS mechs to focus on DPS is pretty important).

Khobai, on 18 August 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

also its not just heatsinks that need to be balanced. every single instance where IS pays more crit slots or tonnage than clans for the same thing needs to be addressed. endo and ferro for example: IS pays 7 extra crit slots and they should get something extra for that.

If IS weapons are a bit better for the tonnage that isn't as much of an issue. For example if the iERPPC + 5 DHS is as powerful as a cERPPC + 5 DHS + TComp 3 give or take a ton then you have accomplished that goal.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 August 2017 - 08:48 AM.

[Insanity09]

This is not tabletop. How do I know? It is not on my table, it's on my computer.

Funny that I see people clamoring for a boost in the cERPPC damage, based on TT values, but nobody seems to mention that on that basis there would also be a further increase in heat. Hmm.

Its all irrelevant, because this is not TT. Do people not understand that?
The values and functions of some equipment and weapons in this game had to be adjusted to try and achieve some semblance of balance between the factions, and to make a real-time game, as opposed to turn based, work.
Oh, do people want MWO to be turn-based instead? Cuz, you know, TT rules. I sure don't want that.

People want to complain about "disappearing damage"? Well, let's see, according to the in-game stats for the cERPPC, it does 10 damage. TEN. Is there ever a time (within optimum range) where a hit does less than that official damage value? Nope.
On the other hand, there are plenty of times when other weapons, missiles and multi-shot ACs, do less than their official damage value, even within optimal. Now that's disappearing damage.
(of course, by TT rules, all ACs would be multi-shot AC's, 1 bullet for each number in the AC, 2 for 2's, 5 for 5's, etc., with the chance for some of the burst to miss all the time, but nobody seems to want to talk about that either)
Instead, we should talk about magically appearing damage, called splash, where a single shot from a cERPPC might actually do MORE damage than it lists for in MWO. That's a bonus.

But muh TT rules say the cERPPC does 15 points of damage, this is so unfair!
A, this isn't TT, things had to be adjusted. B, if you are a decent shot, by dint of the magical appearing bonus damage, you still can do a total of 15, not pp, true, but better than not doing the damage.

You want to moan about the lesser velocity of the cERPPC? I ask you if that velocity (improved recently) has made it a useless weapon, too difficult to hit with?
Wow, if that's true, then based on speed, almost all other projectile weapons, PPCs, AC's, missiles for both IS and clan are garbage. Only AC2s and gauss weapons are usable, going by that standard. Yet, people do seem able to hit with those slower speed weapons, somehow.

The cERPPC isn't too tough for me to use, speed-wise, I just have to adjust my target lead and work with the speed. I admit that at times I have a little difficulty because I switch between playing clan and IS, and I use a variety of weapons on my builds, so the projectile speeds vary for me. If I purely played clan and used only cERPPCs, projectile-wise, I'd get very used to the one speed. I just consider myself an acceptable shot, so if I can get it to work, I'd think most folks could.

Which leads me to the conclusion that projectile speed complaints are specious.
Of course, TT rules never had any projectile speeds at all, but then again, MWO is not TT.

Khobai, I'll say it again, adding other factors, like size and performance of DHS, into the evaluation of a single weapon (2 really, IS and clan ERPPC), is a MISTAKE.
Why?
Because when you start trying to look at the DHS availability, you consider space and tonnage available, and when you examine space/tonnage available that means evaluating how much space is used by other components, armor, structure, engine size, and the size of weapons and other equipment. All that contributes to how many resources are available for more heat sinks (and weapons).
Universally, when calculating all that, Clan wins, hands down. Under that microscope, the cERPPC should absolutely NOT be made any better than it already is.
Keep it about just the equivalent weapons, and there is more of a chance.

And my argument there is that even without taking splash damage into consideration, the cERPPC is, at worst, just as good as the iERPPC. Slower (projectile and cooldown) and very slightly more heat, but lighter and smaller. Those are darn good trade-offs.
The game needs at least a nod towards balance between IS and Clan. TT values won't allow that.

Clan mechs were astoundingly superior when they first came into the TT world.
When first introduced in TT, Clans had a target computer that would let them auto-hit the CT. For MWO purposes, that is an aim hack, an illegal banning offense, but hey, those are the TT rules, shouldn't those be in game?
Exact TT values clearly cannot be used.

I'll say it again.
Exact TT values cannot be used.

[Khobai]

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Plus wasn't it you bitching about IS having more options compared to Clans for equipment and such?

yeah I would give clans laser heatsinks too so theyd have another heatsink option as well.

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Either way, compact heatsinks would be the only worthwhile heat sink because the dissipation is probably the most important part for IS mechs

compact heatsinks weigh more tonnage though

so on mechs that lack tonnage or mechs that run cool already theyre not a better option

depending on the mech and the build, theres a reason to use both, which is the point of having options.

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Khobai, I'll say it again, adding other factors, like size and performance of DHS, into the evaluation of a single weapon (2 really, IS and clan ERPPC), is a MISTAKE.

but CDHS makes every clan weapon better except for maybe gauss. not just a single weapon.

CDHS being superior to ISDHS is one of the major imbalances in the two tech bases.

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2017 - 12:33 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 18 August 2017 - 12:21 PM, said:

compact heatsinks weigh more tonnage though

so on mechs that lack tonnage or mechs that run cool already theyre not a better option

depending on the mech and the build, theres a reason to use both, which is the point of having options.

Compact heatsinks serve 0 purpose in TT and would be even worse in this game without more serious alterations than SHS already have. Let me make this clear, compact heatsinks make singles look good. 1.5 tons for 1 heat dissipated for 1/2 a crit slot (essentially) is worthless. That said, the build process would always be about how to find a way to fit the most compact heat sinks, assuming they somehow give you better dissipation rates than DHS, which they had better given that's what the IS needs, not doubles that give you extra capacity (which is for the most part worthless).

[Khobai]

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Compact heatsinks serve 0 purpose in TT

compact heatsinks allow you to trade tonnage for crit slots

they absolutely serve a purpose in TT

because heavies and assaults often run out of crit slots before they run out of tonnage

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1.5 tons for 1 heat dissipated for 1/2 a crit slot (essentially) is worthless.

where are you getting 1 heat dissipated from? thats not the value they would be set at.

just like DHS arnt set at 2.0

and SHS arnt set at 1.0

compact HS wouldnt be set at 1.0 either

you realize the values will be changed if its added to MWO right? Like theyve been changed for other heatsinks.

compact HS would be a fantastic addition to the game for IS, it would free up much needed crit slots on heavier mechs

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2017 - 12:43 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 18 August 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

compact heatsinks allow you to trade tonnage for crit slots

Except tonnage becomes your constraint over crit slots with just single heat sinks which don't even weight as much as a sole compact heatsink. They are pointless in that they are not used in almost any build for optimization, SHS/DHS are better in probably 99% of builds if not all.

Khobai, on 18 August 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

and SHS arnt set at 1.0

compact HS wouldnt be set at 1.0 either

you realize the values will be changed if its added to MWO right? Like theyve been changed for other heatsinks.

Except it took us 4+ years to get SHS where they are now and they still aren't useful outside niche builds and compact heatsinks are WORSE than SHS. You can keep up your pipedream that PGI will somehow make them worthwhile while I actually just push for better things like getting IS weapon heat drilled down or iDHS dissipation/capacity boosted.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 August 2017 - 12:41 PM.

[Khobai]

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Except tonnage becomes your constraint over crit slots with just single heat sinks which don't even weight as much as a sole compact heatsink. They are pointless in that they are not used in almost any build for optimization, SHS/DHS are better in probably 99% of builds if not all.

I disagree. I dont think youre accounting for the fact you can stuff compact heatsinks into locations like legs

you cant put any DHS in legs and you can only put 2 SHS in each leg vs 4 compact heatsinks.

compact heatsinks not only drastically increase how many heatsinks IS can take but it also allows IS to put numerous heatsinks in locations they previously couldnt put any heatsinks in

compact heatsinks would be tremendously useful for freeing up crit slots. and they arnt worse than SHS because you cant stick 4 SHS in a leg or CT. or 2 SHS in a head. but you can with compacts.

and for some reason you seem to think compact HS would use tabletop stats... but they would have different stats when translated into MWO just like DHS and SHS do. They wouldnt be 1.0 dissipation.

youre not seeing the full potential because of your shortsightedness

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2017 - 12:54 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 18 August 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

I disagree. I dont think youre accounting for the fact you can stuff compact heatsinks into locations like legs

So? SHS can do that just fine and tonnage is already a concern for SHS builds before slots become a concern and you want something that focuses on crit slots even more? Just lol

Please, show me a valid build that could utilize compact heat sinks over SHS assuming that they both dissipate the same heat.

Khobai, on 18 August 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

compact heatsinks would be tremendously useful for freeing up crit slots.

Freeing up slots has diminishing returns when it comes to free weight, at some point all the space you free becomes pointless. LFF/ES is all you will ever what for a majority of builds because of how minor the tonnage gain is between LFF and HFF that SHS/CHS are guaranteed to be worse.

Khobai, on 18 August 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

compact heatsinks not only drastically increase how many heatsinks IS can take but it also allows IS to put heatsinks in locations they previously couldnt

99% of builds carry more SHS than they do CHS because compact heat sinks end up being too heavy for what they do.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 August 2017 - 12:54 PM.

[Khobai]

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99% of builds carry more SHS than they do CHS because compact heat sinks end up being too heavy for what they do.

but what they do is entirely malleable. their stats can be changed in MWO. just like the stats for other heatsinks were changed. why is that so hard of a concept to grasp?

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Freeing up slots has diminishing returns when it comes to free weight, at some point all the space you free becomes pointless.

Only because ISXL engines suck so bad. So IS mechs dont get ISXL as a source of free tonnage like Clans do with CXL.

Thats why making ISXL survive side torso destruction is also imperative.

Like I said its not just about heatsinks. Every aspect of the two techbases needs to be equalized better.

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2017 - 12:58 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 18 August 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

but what they do is entirely malleable. their stats can be changed in MWO. just like the stats for other heatsinks were changed. why is that so hard of a concept to grasp?

What part of it took us to 4+ years to get SHS to even be somewhat usable is so hard of a concept to grasp? Why not just buff iDHS to have better capacity/dissipation rather than hinge your bets on some future tech that you hope will get added one day? Options can come later, they shouldn't be treated as the magical silver bullet.

Khobai, on 18 August 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

Only because ISXL engines suck so bad. So IS mechs dont get ISXL as a source of free tonnage like Clans do with CXL.

That has NOTHING to do with the conversation. Even with iXLs, SHS > CHS.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 August 2017 - 12:59 PM.

[Khobai]

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What part of it took us to 4+ years to get SHS to even be somewhat usable is so hard of a concept to grasp?

Yeah but thats solely due to PGI's ineptitude at balancing.

The whole point of a theoretical discussion like this is what we would do differently from PGI.

What I would do is equalize all aspects of the two techbases from the ground up. That is the only way you can have 1:1 balance.

The game is never going to be sufficiently balanced as long as CDHS are superior to ISDHS, CFF/CES is superior to ISFF/ISES, and CXL is superior to ISXL. Or as long as weapons like clan gauss weigh 3 tons less with no downside whatsoever. The only way to balance IS vs Clan is to balance both sides of the equation.

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2017 - 01:06 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 18 August 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

What I would do is equalize all aspects of the two techbases from the ground up.

Equalize how? Making them behave the exact same would be boring but making them behave differently but equally powerful now that would be interesting but Yeonne seems to be the one of the few people actually good at suggesting changes to do just that.

[Khobai]

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Equalize how? Making them behave the exact same would be boring but making them behave differently but equally powerful now that would be interesting but Yeonne seems to be the one of the few people actually good at suggesting changes to do just that.

You can have two things be equal but different. asymmetrical balance would still be the goal.

and Yeonne has some good ideas that I agree with. But a lot I dont agree with.

[MagicIndex]

Khobai, on 18 August 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

no one wants to make CERPPCs do 15 PPFLD. thats not at all what were talking about. were talking about how splash damage shouldnt vanish into thin air, not making CERPPCs do 15 PPFLD.

I'm sorry mister.. but talk for your self. Okay?

[Khobai]

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I'm sorry mister.. but talk for your self. Okay?

well no one up until this point wanted that

[ocular tb]

Lucian Nostra, on 18 August 2017 - 06:45 AM, said:

That's why I said it's "like" missiles and not "the same as missiles" Your looking at your after match damage on IS ERPPCs and seeing a lower damage number and thinking that the extra damage you do with your Clan ERPPCs is just as valuable when in actuality that 50% splash damage isn't really all that worthwhile. Hence why I said it's a placebo effect you see higher damage numbers therefore you had a better game when in fact no, the damage you dealt is just less efficient. (I would say for example that if you played a 4 ppc warhawk and did 450 dmg you need to subtract 150 of that damage to see your true damage dealt than add about 1/3 of that 150 back in so roughly 350 point of worthwhile damage dealt)

So it's LIKE missiles in that people see 900+ damage while boating missiles and think "Hey I just did 900+ damage this is good!" when.. no.. 500 damage of direct fire is more effective (if you can somewhat aim) because that damage application is pin point instead of spread all over.

Would that 15 damage be better if it was a single gauss round? Yes, it would be. But I wouldn't say the extra splash damage isn't worthwhile. It's no less useful than any other weapon spread damage including LRMs, SRMs, SSRMs, ATMs, MRMs, lasers, pulse lasers, LB-X cannons, burst fire auto cannons, RACs. etc. These weapons can all spread damage. When you or someone else does high damage with any of these weapons, do you scrutinize how much of that damage was pinpoint? For most of them, probably not. But the CERPPC does get scrutinized because the splash mechanic has a known value and is therefore easier to determine how much was pinpoint and how much wasn't (roughly, if not exact).

My point is, if I have one, is that while they do spread damage I don't think it's fair to look at them and say that the extra damage isn't as useful. It can be in some circumstances. I have 5 free extra points of damage I'm doing for each hit regardless of the fact it's splash. Nothing wrong with that.