38 replies to this topic

[Ruar]

Just read the write up of the twitch stream (use your forums to communicate PGI) and it said Russ was wanting people to discuss the idea of making QP into 8v8 and Faction Play into 12v12.

I think on some maps 8v8 makes sense. The smaller maps get crowded quick and it can be difficult to do anything other than deathball because you don't want to turn the corner and find 6+ enemy mechs. If there are only 8 total enemy mechs then you turn the corner into 4 and you have the chance to actually live to get back into cover.

However on the bigger maps having 12 people feels right. If there are only 8 then those mechs will deathball because any flanking movements will be one or two people. When there are 12 people you can take 4 or 5 mechs on a flank run and still have a sufficient number of people providing a distraction while the flanking element moves.

Map size should be the dominant factor on how many mechs are on a team.



Something I haven't seen mentioned yet is the fact that 8v8 QP and 12v12 FP is an attempt to push people into FP without actually making FP better. I think it's a bad idea to make QP less fun in a bid to try and make FP more appealing.

[Stf Sgt Marblez]

I can appreciate the 8v8 on certain maps point, that makes sense. 8v8 on polar, no thank you thats going to end up in just frustration for both sides.

But as far as the detacting from QP, I could see it happening but imho population is low as is, I pretty much only drop QP tbh and the wait times have been pretty long as of lately, I feel the last two events have shucked most of the players off into FW just because of potential rewards. People will go where the cookies are, and the cookies are in FW right now.

Now that I'm done rambling, I welcome the 8v8 it should provide better brawls (fingers crossed), but I get the feeling it might devolve into who brought more sniper builds.

Anywho, just my 2 cents

o7

[Bigbacon]

There isnt a map that is bad because of 12v12. Even hpg which is probably the best map in the game is good with 12v12.

8v8 is going to gimp all play modes except skirmish even more than they already are. All modes mostly play as skirmish as is and 8v8 would totally make it worse. I can see how conquest, which works very well with 12, would even work with 8.

8v8 might be good for competition play but not in puggy land it wont. It requires much more rigid gameplay.

I only play qp and the wait times are not bad at all.

Edited by Bigbacon, 19 August 2017 - 02:45 PM.

[Ruar]

Bigbacon, on 19 August 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

There isnt a map that is bad because of 12v12. Even hpg which is probably the best map in the game is good with 12v12.

8v8 is going to gimp all play modes except skirmish even more than they already are. All modes mostly play as skirmish as is and 8v8 would totally make it worse. I can see how conquest, which works very well with 12, would even work with 8.

8v8 might be good for competition play but not in puggy land it wont. It requires much more rigid gameplay.

I only play qp and the wait times are not bad at all.

HPG is actually a pretty big map when you consider the vertical height as well as the horizontal. I can only think of two small maps, Mining Colony and Canyon, that would be right for 8v8. They would need to cut down some of the bigger maps into smaller sizes to have more 8v8 maps.

[FupDup]

I just want the C-Bill and XP rewards scaled back up to their old levels before 12v12 got them nerfed down.

[Sjorpha]

I think 8v8 would be good for quickplay group queue at least.

Not so sure about solo queue, but it would probably be good there too.

Now one VERY important aspect is the rewards being scaled up to match the reduced potential for damage etc, otherwise the grind with 8v8 could become quite terrible.

Ideally I would like randomized mix of 8v8 and 12v12 matches, and also random map selection. That would make quickplay a lot more varied and fun to play I think.

[Davegt27]

I thought it was set in stone ??

[ocular tb]

I like 12v12 but would probably like 8v8 too. I would like to see both in game that way neither group of players is completely left out. Not sure the best way to do it, though. Make it random perhaps? Make it a mode selection option? During times of lower population use smaller 8 man teams instead of using the release valves to fill the teams? Having the game support both 8v8 and 12v12 I think would be the best way to handle it.

[Ruar]

Davegt27, on 19 August 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

I thought it was set in stone ??

I assume you are just messing with my wording, but just in case.

Quote

- 8v8 Quick Play: They've been assessing the feelings of the community, and they're looking at changing QUICK PLAY ONLY back to 8v8 (like it was back in the day for people who've been around a few years). Matches up well with comp play, will have positive impacts on matchmaker and queues. Oceanic and other regions/playtimes will benefit greatly, as well. Creates a solid gameplay dynamic of 4v4 scouting, 8v8 quick play/competitive, and 12v12 faction play in PGI's mind. Should also push larger groups to play in Faction Play as well, and focus the quick play group queue on smaller groups. However, this change is not absolute, and they're encouraging debate and discussion on the forums. They release this is a potentially polarizing and controversial change and want to see the discussions and debates over the potential change. However, making the change is quick and reasonably easy, so whether they flip the switch or not the work isn't going to be done until the decision is made.

There's the quote, here's the link.

https://mwomercs.com...y-someone-else/

[Bigbacon]

FupDup, on 19 August 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

I just want the C-Bill and XP rewards scaled back up to their old levels before 12v12 got them nerfed down.

What were they before? Its so easy to get 200k bills per round. That seems pretty good

Keep Solo queue 12v12.

Edited by Bigbacon, 19 August 2017 - 04:00 PM.

[Baba Yogi]

I am all for 8v8 QP, it was a long time coming. These are what ppl are going to notice in 8v8

1. TTK will be significantly increased, as there are less enemy firepower in the battlefield while u still have same amount of armor.
2. Because of less enemies, they wont be able to cover as many firing angles as they could before, thus mobility is buffed, thus people will be more encouraged to move around in the map.
3. Less waiting times, and/or higher quality matchmaking
4. Increased FPS
5. Personal skill will matter more, also snowballing will be much easier to stop than before. It is going to give the superior player more time to be able to carry his team before his team is crushed.

I would add more but it's 3 am here and im tired and cant think. So i'll leave the rest to others.

Edited by Lordhammer, 19 August 2017 - 04:19 PM.

[GA1NAX]

Two letters: N O

[OzViper]

Sjorpha, on 19 August 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

Now one VERY important aspect is the rewards being scaled up to match the reduced potential for damage etc, otherwise the grind with 8v8 could become quite terrible.

They would need to scale up the rewards for the reduced damage dealt but also scale up to take into account that games will most likely take longer as well.. ie less games per hour..

[CheeseThief]

My overall opinion on 8v8 quickplay is that I am sick of PGI removing things.

New Frozen city comes along, old one gets removed.
New Terra Therma comes along, old one gets removed.
New Forrest Colony comes along, old one gets removed.
8v8 QP comes along, 12v12 QP gets removed.


I would prefer it if it wasn't an either/or choice.
Such as by having the matchmaker filling an 8v8 game as the default then taking a few seconds to see if it could make it a 12v12 so higher population times (weekends) could give out larger games, or use their new event system to lay out some 12v12 happy hours a couple of times per day to break up the smaller more common 8v8 games.

The old maps played differently to the new maps and were removed, we are now missing that content. I'd rather the same thing not happen with match sizes, and if they can find a way to incorporate both game mode sizes without increasing the number of quick play buckets then all the better.

[o0m9]

I would strongly prefer 8v8. 24 mechs in a firefight is too crowded for how the maps are laid out. Even Alpine and Polar get choked up because the viable firing positions aren't numerous enough to support a 12 man team.

That said, I don't know if many of the game modes would survive in an 8v8 world. Murderballs are already the go-to in Conquest, Incursion, and Assault and lowering the player count is going to exacerbate that. It might improve things a little for Escort since there won't be as many reds.to ping your guy.

[Ruar]

Lordhammer, on 19 August 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

I am all for 8v8 QP, it was a long time coming. These are what ppl are going to notice in 8v8

1. TTK will be significantly increased, as there are less enemy firepower in the battlefield while u still have same amount of armor.
2. Because of less enemies, they wont be able to cover as many firing angles as they could before, thus mobility is buffed, thus people will be more encouraged to move around in the map.
3. Less waiting times, and/or higher quality matchmaking
4. Increased FPS
5. Personal skill will matter more, also snowballing will be much easier to stop than before. It is going to give the superior player more time to be able to carry his team before his team is crushed.

I would add more but it's 3 am here and im tired and cant think. So i'll leave the rest to others.

Rarely do I ever face all 12 of the enemy. Heck, I rarely see more than four or five together, let alone all firing on the same target. I don't really see such a change being a big impact on TTK.

I figure mobility will be nerfed actually. With 12 mechs on the field it's not a big deal if 3 or 4 move off on a flank or separate. If there are only 8 on the team then at most you can have 2 people flanking while everyone else has to pretty much stay together. If anything I see such a change reinforcing the deathball rather than breaking it up. As for angles of fire, most maps have chokepoints which already restrict movement and angles, having fewer people in the chokepoints doesn't really change anything.

Less waiting times is a positive, but it also means the game has fewer players. I don't see how the MM quality will improve any when the underlying factors which dictate the MM selection are flawed. The tier system is bad and therefore we have bad MM.

I can't see a major FPS boost from fewer players. The movable objects and total pixel count on the maps is what causes the FPS to lag, not the number of mechs. I never see my FPS slow down in a match nor does it speed up when half the teams are wiped out.

Personal skill is a double edged sword effecting both teams. Snowballing will be just as prevalent since the MM is flawed. Once a team starts losing it will keep losing. Individual skill will have the same relative effect since you don't face 12 of the enemy. You face a portion of the enemy team at a time. The skill required to pull out a win will scale proportionally with the reduction in total people in the match.

The biggest problem I see with 8v8 is with the mobility and deathballing aspects. Right now a deathball is usually about 6 people close to each other with the other 6 on the fringes or completely separated. Dropping to 8 people will cause people to stay clustered since they are used to a certain size element when moving. This will reduce the overall mobility because fewer people are able to move around. This will be magnified on bigger maps. Conquest will be worse than it already is because the team can't split up at all or risk dying one by one.

The only way 8v8 will work is on the smallest maps where spreading out still lets you get back to the main portion easily. Ideally there would be mixed 8v8 and 12v12 ques where map rotation determines which que you get. Small maps are clustered together for the 8v8 que and the medium and large maps get 12v12. The MM moves you around between the ques depending on which ones you've been in recently.

[Kyrie]

8v8 makes for better games. Assuming the rewards are adjusted upwards.

[Tarl Cabot]

First, when it was 8vs8 it was only IS mechs. Competitive Mode which is 8vs8 is primarily Clan mechs though not all the time AND those players are are dropping as a group with a something of a plan, not as pugs where anything flies.

Which is where PGI should have set it up so it can be adjustable. If not random then run a few weeks as 8vs8, a few weeks as 10vs10, etc, cycling it around but I do not see why it would need to be hard set to 8vs8. Or even play it as 8vs8 (2 IS Lances) and 10vs10 (2 Clan Stars).

Then to add to this, this can be where the shortcomings of isXL engine not receiving the same benefits as the cXL with surviving the loss of a side torso. There is no "replay" type where the player has 4 mechs to run through.

[Andi Nagasia]

Ruar, on 19 August 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

However on the bigger maps having 12 people feels right. If there are only 8 then those mechs will deathball because any flanking movements will be one or two people. When there are 12 people you can take 4 or 5 mechs on a flank run and still have a sufficient number of people providing a distraction while the flanking element moves.

i have to disagree, their was much less death Balling from what i remember from 8v8,
cant really count on how Match Making will change as much has happened since then,

Ruar, on 19 August 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Map size should be the dominant factor on how many mechs are on a team.

disagree, as it would completely mess with how map voting works,
it would what lock you to one of 2 map buckets(8v8 Maps) & (12v12 Maps)
dont think it would work out well, and could have negative side effects,

Ruar, on 19 August 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet is the fact that 8v8 QP and 12v12 FP is an attempt to push people into FP without actually making FP better. I think it's a bad idea to make QP less fun in a bid to try and make FP more appealing.

but its not, as many people prefer 8v8, over 12v12, i dont think this is a conspiricy to push people into FP,
also the event system next month may make FP seem like a much better option but we will see,

[Mister Blastman]

I can't wait for 8v8. 8v8 is awesome! Best game mode aside from 4v4 and 2v2. 12v12 is bad and needs to go.