87 replies to this topic

[MadRover]

El Bandito, on 21 August 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

Disagree. Alpine for example, worked back in 8v8, and we didn't race for the hill every time.

That was what? Four or three years ago? Before Clan even dropped? Before balance changes were made in a 12v12 team format?

8v8 is now a fantasy world with everything that has been changed throughout the times that even I don't know about. In order for 8v8 to work, you will have to undo every 12v12 team format balance change that has been made and completely rebalance every mech and gear currently in the game and it took them 3-4years to make all those changes. It is impossible and impractical to go back to 8v8 matchmaking because of all the changes they will immediately have to do to make it work. Keep it at 12v12 and stop trying to put a band aid on a nonexistent problem. STOP FIXING NONEXISTENT ISSUES.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 August 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

It would be nice if percentages or something were visible at the end of round screen partially for this reason.

So much telemetry we need. Imagine if players could see the telemetry on every mech and weapon in the game? Imagine if you could see their % contribution to the match? How about every players tier/elo/whatever?

I get people hating seeing their relative stats, they don't want to feel competitive. The problem is that catering to people illusions that "they're doing fine" just keeps them from seeing what they need to see to get better.

[MadRover]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

So much telemetry we need. Imagine if players could see the telemetry on every mech and weapon in the game? Imagine if you could see their % contribution to the match? How about every players tier/elo/whatever?

I get people hating seeing their relative stats, they don't want to feel competitive. The problem is that catering to people illusions that "they're doing fine" just keeps them from seeing what they need to see to get better.

Not necessarily weapon stats but overall efficiency. If you have 1.0 W-L or similar ratio with a 1.2KDR then you are doing something wrong. However if you see you can pull effective games throughout your play time, then W-L ratio become a moot point. KDR becomes a moot point. It comes straight to how efficient you are being with your mechs.

Let's take my Scorch LBX10 Artemis SRM6 build that I run. I currently can run very effective games despite all the nerfs it received because I know what I can and can't do. Even on a 12v12 pug environment I still run effective games because I know where I need to be at, and how to determine my next 3 moves based on what's happening around me.

Now let's take a mech that I really love because it's honestly my favorite mech ever since MW4, the MCII. I currently run two gauss rifles and 4ERMEDs. I know I can run stock on it fairly well with very minor tweaks but that's not going to be my point. I tend to play passive aggressive games in that particular setup because I know I can't afford to lose much but you will almost always see me at the front doing what I can and still making my next 3 moves plausible.

The reason why I can do what I do is because I use all my tools available to me. Most pilots (based on what I've seen) don't bother using every tool they have and it hurts the team very harshly. Now do I make serious mistakes? Yes I do. I'm not the greatest pilot there is or ever will be but the fact I stick to basics, take a quick look at my radar, look around me from time to time, and press the R key means I can do fairly well regardless on how bad the team is. The fact there are an excessive amount of bad players who don't even stick to basics is a testament on how much people really care about being competitive. So taking the fun away from those excessive bad players by going backwards (this is what they said in all intents and purposes) will result in the game dying in a dramatic way. Maybe I'm wrong, but going 8v8 is a step in the wrong direction and this isn't even an arena game. Let's stop trying to make this an arena game.


Sorry for the big post.

[MischiefSC]

MadRover, on 23 August 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

Not necessarily weapon stats but overall efficiency. If you have 1.0 W-L or similar ratio with a 1.2KDR then you are doing something wrong. However if you see you can pull effective games throughout your play time, then W-L ratio become a moot point. KDR becomes a moot point. It comes straight to how efficient you are being with your mechs.

Let's take my Scorch LBX10 Artemis SRM6 build that I run. I currently can run very effective games despite all the nerfs it received because I know what I can and can't do. Even on a 12v12 pug environment I still run effective games because I know where I need to be at, and how to determine my next 3 moves based on what's happening around me.

Now let's take a mech that I really love because it's honestly my favorite mech ever since MW4, the MCII. I currently run two gauss rifles and 4ERMEDs. I know I can run stock on it fairly well with very minor tweaks but that's not going to be my point. I tend to play passive aggressive games in that particular setup because I know I can't afford to lose much but you will almost always see me at the front doing what I can and still making my next 3 moves plausible.

The reason why I can do what I do is because I use all my tools available to me. Most pilots (based on what I've seen) don't bother using every tool they have and it hurts the team very harshly. Now do I make serious mistakes? Yes I do. I'm not the greatest pilot there is or ever will be but the fact I stick to basics, take a quick look at my radar, look around me from time to time, and press the R key means I can do fairly well regardless on how bad the team is. The fact there are an excessive amount of bad players who don't even stick to basics is a testament on how much people really care about being competitive. So taking the fun away from those excessive bad players by going backwards (this is what they said in all intents and purposes) will result in the game dying in a dramatic way. Maybe I'm wrong, but going 8v8 is a step in the wrong direction and this isn't even an arena game. Let's stop trying to make this an arena game.


Sorry for the big post.

I get what you're talking about but 8 v 8 isn't putting this into an arena environment.

People.do what they feel rewarded doing. It's what's fun. The problem we have now isn't that some players enjoy making bad choices or taking bad builds it's that the Tier system will inevitably push them up regardless and the matchmakers need to fill 24 people to start a match in a timely manner means they're regularly in matches with better players.

The goal isn't to make it easier for Quicksilver Kalasa to farm 8 bads a match solo and hero carry all day every day. It's that by having a better tuned matchmaker and letting the matchmaker build games with only 16 people instead of 24 those bads will never be in a match with a top tier player, they'll play with other bads and they'll shoot their LRMs into walls and get Cheetos stuck in their joysticks and run in circles all match and be happy.

That's why 8 v 8 needs a new matchmaker. It has the potential to cut players into thinner slices to build matches. Without the right tools then yes - right now, MM as it is, you'll have people like QS dropping on matches with those 4 guys in the top 20 of this months leaderboard with sub 1.0 w/L and sub 0.5 KDR. It sees them as approximately equal value. That's going to be bad.

If however it splits by w/l and modifies that based on a rough value of the mech, those bads in bad builds would never see him and he would never have to carry them.

Everyone wins.

Edited by MischiefSC, 23 August 2017 - 04:14 PM.

[El Bandito]

MadRover, on 23 August 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

That was what? Four or three years ago? Before Clan even dropped? Before balance changes were made in a 12v12 team format?

8v8 is now a fantasy world with everything that has been changed throughout the times that even I don't know about. In order for 8v8 to work, you will have to undo every 12v12 team format balance change that has been made and completely rebalance every mech and gear currently in the game and it took them 3-4years to make all those changes. It is impossible and impractical to go back to 8v8 matchmaking because of all the changes they will immediately have to do to make it work. Keep it at 12v12 and stop trying to put a band aid on a nonexistent problem. STOP FIXING NONEXISTENT ISSUES.

Except those issues are real. MM, wait time, FPS etc... Still, one wouldn't know if 8v8 will be better unless one tests it out. Which is why I am going to vote YES to 8v8 so PGI will at least put it on PTR. Balance will not be affected, since comp queue already uses 8v8 anyway, and they are having no glaring balance issues.

[MadRover]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

I get what you're talking about but 8 v 8 isn't putting this into an arena environment.

People.do what they feel rewarded doing. It's what's fun. The problem we have now isn't that some players enjoy making bad choices or taking bad builds it's that the Tier system will inevitably push them up regardless and the matchmakers need to fill 24 people to start a match in a timely manner means they're regularly in matches with better players.

The goal isn't to make it easier for Quicksilver Kalasa to farm 8 bads a match solo and hero carry all day every day. It's that by having a better tuned matchmaker and letting the matchmaker build games with only 16 people instead of 24 those bads will never be in a match with a top tier player, they'll play with other bads and they'll shoot their LRMs into walls and get Cheetos stuck in their joysticks and run in circles all match and be happy.

That's why 8 v 8 needs a new matchmaker. It has the potential to cut players into thinner slices to build matches. Without the right tools then yes - right now, MM as it is, you'll have people like QS dropping on matches with those 4 guys in the top 20 of this months leaderboard with sub 1.0 w/L and sub 0.5 KDR. It sees them as approximately equal value. That's going to be bad.

If however it splits by w/l and modifies that based on a rough value of the mech, those bads in bad builds would never see him and he would never have to carry them.

Everyone wins.

I did forget to mention vision that PGI will be forced to admit to everyone. This game was created for big team games and over the years of PGI incompetence they went away from that vision and lied to themselves time and time again to the point that it's unsalvageable. The only way I can see 8v8 being a thing is if, and only if, PGI starts all over again and of course grows up and admit to every mistake they have made so they can make positive changes. It's the only way. Otherwise they have to pan out every single problem that exists in the game which, by the way, they've shown they won't. They will also have to rebalance everything for 8v8 since everything is balanced for 12v12. They can't just flip a switch and say it'll work. It won't work. They have to put forth the time and effort to make everything "properly balanced" which is going to take at a minimum two years. Not to mention the matchmaker needs to be fixed which brought up this 8v8 vs 12v12 argument in the first place.

The solution to the problem is to fix the matchmaker. The way they've presented this is really just telling me they don't want to fix the matchmaker. They've basically lost any care for the game (which is unfortunate). Also, any way to make this game more competitive properly has evaporated into thin air. I might being one of those people that somehow is seeing doom and gloom for this game; but I can only go by with what I know and so far, it sounds like they don't care anymore and they need to prove that they still care and start making the right decisions, start making the right fixes, and STOP using the nerf hammer just because they can because everyone is getting frustrated by them and frustration caused by the devs is an excellent recipe to drive people away.

[50 50]

Given the change really is the flick of a switch, why don't we just try it for a couple of weeks?
If we can see at the end that dropping the team sizes creates a whole raft of problems that would need addressing, then the discussion becomes:
Do we want the developers trying to work all that out for 8v8 or do we flick the switch back to 12 v 12 and not worry?

If we want to talk about variety in the battles and at the same time keeping wait times minimal, then we should use a more dynamic system.

If there are 24 players available. Then it's straight into 12 v 12.
If we have less than that, then it waits a minute before matching 8 v 8 or even 4 v 4.

Should ensure that we get matches quickly regardless of time of day but also means the matches get an additional level of variety because the different player numbers makes the games play out differently and we use different tactics.

I don't see why it can't be done given we have the functionality to have less than a full team in the Private lobby combined with the 'release valves' in the different modes already.
Why put in restrictions?

Don't see it really being any sort of problem in solo quick play.
Would probably want to enforce strict grouping based on lances or at least even numbers for group quick play.

Is it worth combining the two queues?

For match making purposes, would it be better served using a 'lance average tonnage' to match by?
ie. If the average tonnage of 4 mechs would fit within the light chassis range of 20 - 35 tons, then it's considered a light lance and the match maker then matches two light lances against each other for the drop.

[MadRover]

El Bandito, on 23 August 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

Except those issues are real. MM, wait time, FPS etc... Still, one wouldn't know if 8v8 will be better unless one tests it out. Which is why I am going to vote YES to 8v8 so PGI will at least put it on PTR. Balance will not be affected, since comp queue already uses 8v8 anyway, and they are having no glaring balance issues.

Voting is after the 1-2weeks of 8v8 if it even goes through. They probably will at least test it, but honestly I don't see any real improvements.