48 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Paigan, on 23 August 2017 - 12:37 AM, said:

If this is meant as an argument for quads in MWO, then you are comparing apples and oranges.
Strategy games handle units more less as monolithical objects and handle the damaging etc. in an abstract way (e.g. "dice" rolling instead of actual geometrical aiming). This means the unit models itself are hardly more than animations glued to the actually abstract unit.
In such an abstracted concept, it's next to irrelevant if the unit has 2 legs or 4 or 15.5 tentacles. It's a mere animation that has no influence on the gameplay.

In a an FPS like MWO, you have actual geometrical aiming. You have things like hitboxes. MWO even has Mechs being comprised of different components. You can imagine the Mechs as actually "being there" in a geometrical way for the game logic. All that has to be coded and handled at runtime. That basically means every single form has to be coded for itself.

It's like comparing a sticker image of a Ferrari to your actual car.
Or like comparing a plastic figure Gotcha tabletop game to actually playing Gotcha yourself. The latter is MUCH more complex than the prior.

BUTBUTBUT IT HAS MEKS AND QUADS!!!

[Juodas Varnas]

Not only Quads but also crazy-*** germans?! Where do i sign up?!

Also, the only reason "muh hitboxes, muh hitreg" is a problem with Quads, is that PGI can't code to save their lives.

[Anjian]

Paigan, on 23 August 2017 - 12:37 AM, said:

If this is meant as an argument for quads in MWO, then you are comparing apples and oranges.
Strategy games handle units more less as monolithical objects and handle the damaging etc. in an abstract way (e.g. "dice" rolling instead of actual geometrical aiming). This means the unit models itself are hardly more than animations glued to the actually abstract unit.
In such an abstracted concept, it's next to irrelevant if the unit has 2 legs or 4 or 15.5 tentacles. It's a mere animation that has no influence on the gameplay.

In a an FPS like MWO, you have actual geometrical aiming. You have things like hitboxes. MWO even has Mechs being comprised of different components. You can imagine the Mechs as actually "being there" in a geometrical way for the game logic. All that has to be coded and handled at runtime. That basically means every single form has to be coded for itself.

It's like comparing a sticker image of a Ferrari to your actual car.
Or like comparing a plastic figure Gotcha tabletop game to actually playing Gotcha yourself. The latter is MUCH more complex than the prior.

I actually think that people don't really care about that, but if they do ...




Six legs, segment hit box damage and inverse kinematics, all for a mobile smartphone and tablet.

Honestly, it should not be a problem if you have competent and skilled coders.

Edited by Anjian, 23 August 2017 - 01:10 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Quote

If this is meant as an argument for quads in MWO, then you are comparing apples and oranges.
Strategy games handle units more less as monolithical objects and handle the damaging etc. in an abstract way (e.g. "dice" rolling instead of actual geometrical aiming). This means the unit models itself are hardly more than animations glued to the actually abstract unit.
In such an abstracted concept, it's next to irrelevant if the unit has 2 legs or 4 or 15.5 tentacles. It's a mere animation that has no influence on the gameplay.

No all ...more by the RTS , by roundbased Games like Front Mission ,the Mechs have different Hitboxes

[Alistair Winter]

Huh. A universe created by an artist (Rozalski) becomes so popular that someone decides to make a game about it? That's pretty unheard of, surely? Can't think of too many parallels, except Giger with the Alien-franchise (obviously movies preceded the games).

I don't think they will be able to capture the essence of the artwork, unfortunately. The artwork always felt very real and grim, whereas the game looks like a Bioshock RTS. More like comical dieselpunk than anything.

[Daggett]

Anjian, on 22 August 2017 - 08:04 PM, said:

You know, sometimes I wonder if a MOBA can be created using the Battletech universe.

Probably not a classic MOBA experience because Mechs in Battletech do not possess those cool individual skills which makes each hero's gameplay unique.

But maybe a MOBA-like could be possible. You can take the typical 3-lane map-layout and duke it out with Mechs. However you will probably need some lore-compatible replacement mechanics for the missing skills to create enough gameplay depth...

[Skipmagnet]

Crossout has quads.

[Lily from animove]

Anjian, on 23 August 2017 - 01:09 AM, said:

I actually think that people don't really care about that, but if they do ...




Six legs, segment hit box damage and inverse kinematics, all for a mobile smartphone and tablet.

Honestly, it should not be a problem if you have competent and skilled coders.

have you seen the vid where that mech glues at the giant "thruster" and kinda like grabs in the air because the bakcpart of the thruster is a plain area? With such cheap maplayout it's easy to make "inverse kinematics"

[Anjian]

Lily from animove, on 23 August 2017 - 03:58 AM, said:

have you seen the vid where that mech glues at the giant "thruster" and kinda like grabs in the air because the bakcpart of the thruster is a plain area? With such cheap maplayout it's easy to make "inverse kinematics"

That is what spider robots are for.

The game also features bipedals. Note with inverse kinematics, the feet actually bite and dive into the snow.

[draiocht]

[mod]As this topic is focused on games other than MechWarrior Online,
this thread has been moved to Off Topic Discussions.[/mod]

[Lily from animove]

Anjian, on 23 August 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

That is what spider robots are for.

The game also features bipedals. Note with inverse kinematics, the feet actually bite and dive into the snow.

they are for ****** interactions with invisible walls? because watch again from 6:25, nverse kinematics are easy if you map is made of cheap and simple geometry.

Edited by Lily from animove, 23 August 2017 - 04:10 AM.

[Anjian]

Lily from animove, on 23 August 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:

they are for ****** interactions with invisible walls? because watch again from 6:25, nverse kinematics are easy if you map is made of cheap and simple geometry.

Inverse kinematics work regardless of maps and is independent of map making. You fail to realize how complex those six legged mechs are, which also have individual articulation of shock absorber like tendons behind the joints in the legs. The dead space ship like structures are actually quite complex in geometry complete with inverted surfaces that are meant for climbing. Much of the maps in MWO are actually pretty simple really, with many surface that are confined away to prevent mechs from walking on them.

The game also shows more complex missile pathing.

[Daggett]

Alistair Winter, on 23 August 2017 - 02:58 AM, said:

Huh. A universe created by an artist (Rozalski) becomes so popular that someone decides to make a game about it? That's pretty unheard of, surely? Can't think of too many parallels, except Giger with the Alien-franchise (obviously movies preceded the games).

I don't think they will be able to capture the essence of the artwork, unfortunately. The artwork always felt very real and grim, whereas the game looks like a Bioshock RTS. More like comical dieselpunk than anything.

I guess a big factor in his universe becoming popular was the release of the board game Scythe which got a lot of hype and managed to live up to it. Their kickstarter made a hefty 1.8 million which is huge for a board game and i'm pretty sure the artwork / scenario was a major factor in that success.

I guess the guys behind Iron Harvest are not the only one who have seen the potential of Rozalski's universe after Scythe's success and i would not be surprised to see more games soon.

Edited by Daggett, 23 August 2017 - 04:37 AM.

[Anjian]

Daggett, on 23 August 2017 - 03:18 AM, said:

Probably not a classic MOBA experience because Mechs in Battletech do not possess those cool individual skills which makes each hero's gameplay unique.

But maybe a MOBA-like could be possible. You can take the typical 3-lane map-layout and duke it out with Mechs. However you will probably need some lore-compatible replacement mechanics for the missing skills to create enough gameplay depth...

Considering how even FPS games aka Overwatch, and even wargames like World of Warships are moving into "cool individual skills" like some post 2010 gaming phenomenon, it also stands the reason that without such mechanics, a game or gaming franchise without them is going to be doomed.

The Dark Age Mechwarrior collectible games actually had special abilities, especially with the "Uniques" and the "Unique Pilots" --- and that was over a decade ago.

[Jay Leon Hart]

stealthraccoon, on 22 August 2017 - 09:18 PM, said:

Omg, cast iron, internal combustion, stompy spider mechs with an imperial Soviet flavor - I LOVE IT!

I dunno what this 'Supreme Commander' is, but if it is anything like Total Annihilation, it's probably good.

RestosIII, on 22 August 2017 - 09:25 PM, said:

IIRC, people generally refer to SupCom as the spiritual successor to TA.

Yeah, Chris Taylor was a developer on Total Annihilation and later founded Gas Powered Games then made Supreme Commander as the spiritual successor. Then some folks who worked on Total Annihilation and/or Supreme Commander used KickStarter to fund Planetary Annihilation, an even larger scale RTS. All 3 are solid games.

[Lily from animove]

Anjian, on 23 August 2017 - 04:25 AM, said:

Inverse kinematics work regardless of maps and is independent of map making. You fail to realize how complex those six legged mechs are, which also have individual articulation of shock absorber like tendons behind the joints in the legs. The dead space ship like structures are actually quite complex in geometry complete with inverted surfaces that are meant for climbing. Much of the maps in MWO are actually pretty simple really, with many surface that are confined away to prevent mechs from walking on them.

The game also shows more complex missile pathing.

there is no real inverse kinepatics, just animations. if there were inverse kinematics



this wouldn't happen, as that leg is actually just in nowher ein the air until the mech starst turning. So it basically wals in the air as much as MWO mechs walk in the air.

the entire time when this spidermehc walsk over that thruster you cna see how the legs just keep "walking ont he ground" related to the base body. There is no real inverse kinematics.

[The Basilisk]

Juodas Varnas, on 23 August 2017 - 12:47 AM, said:

Not only Quads but also crazy-*** germans?! Where do i sign up?!

Also, the only reason "muh hitboxes, muh hitreg" is a problem with Quads, is that PGI can't code to save their lives.

No actual problem with quads was, is and forever will be, inverse kinematics aka mech incline.

How and why this can not work with the game as it is on this engine and with this state of collision detection and host state rewind system has been explained a hundred times over and over.

Not possible until you do a MWO 2.

[The Basilisk]

Lily from animove, on 23 August 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

there is no real inverse kinepatics, just animations. if there were inverse kinematics



this wouldn't happen, as that leg is actually just in nowher ein the air until the mech starst turning. So it basically wals in the air as much as MWO mechs walk in the air.

the entire time when this spidermehc walsk over that thruster you cna see how the legs just keep "walking ont he ground" related to the base body. There is no real inverse kinematics.

Every kind of non floating dynamic animation uses some kind of collision detection to know where the border of one object ends and the other begins.
The collision detection of this thing is just more crude.

For MWO this would mean your mech would either float on one side and clip right through the hill on the other side.
Think of Alpine, Forest Colony or Canyon Networks...not to speak of HPG or River City.

Massive ammounts of people beeing able to exploite the "my mech is beeing half hidden in a Hill" would be the least problem.

To alleviate the problems with mechs legghitboxes getting delocalized the terrain an Mech collision boxes would have to be made much more coarse. This also would increase the hidden wall problematics and through terrain shooting abilitys. Not to speak of some maps getting impossible to play because collision boxes of buildings would be to large to go between them or to smal to exist at all.

Edited by The Basilisk, 24 August 2017 - 12:35 AM.

[Anjian]

Lily from animove, on 23 August 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

there is no real inverse kinepatics, just animations. if there were inverse kinematics



this wouldn't happen, as that leg is actually just in nowher ein the air until the mech starst turning. So it basically wals in the air as much as MWO mechs walk in the air.

the entire time when this spidermehc walsk over that thruster you cna see how the legs just keep "walking ont he ground" related to the base body. There is no real inverse kinematics.

It only means there is an invisible ledge there for the leg to hold on (or the leg model to have a collision with), just like the invisible wall on the back of the thruster, or the surfaces doesn't properly align to the landscape models (after all the game is still closed beta). Invisible ledges may have been put in there as a path for the spider to climb, or simply the entire thruster model does not conform to the surfaces. Also for instance, the thruster itself has an invisible wall to prevent mechs from going in completely (during testing there were spiders that fell into crevices between the thrusters).

If there was no inverse kinematics, the spider would have been all floaty throughout the video including running on the snow or ascending the mountain peak. Since the spider is also climbs right to the top of the peak, and is capable of wrapping itself around an enemy robot, the amount of animations you need to cover all the potential surface variations would have been phenomenal. If there is conformity everywhere but the thruster, then the thruster surface and model is at fault and maybe disaligned, either intentionally or as a bug in the course of development.


The game is already working on a second map, this time what appears to be a desert, and once again, you have too many surface variations to create animations to account for everything, much less store them in a mobile device.

Throughout the game, the toes of the mechs, touch, bend and conform to the surface.

Edited by Anjian, 24 August 2017 - 02:20 AM.

[Lily from animove]

no anjin, there is no invisible ledge, the leg position is in relation to the center body, tahts why it steps into the open until the center mass finally "goes around the edge" then suddenly magically the leg sawps too

just watch the toes of that fist mech in the fist vid you posted all it does is partially hovering over or clipping in the surface. So where are those amazing toes you talk of.