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Why Do You Get A 50% Bonus For Joining The Winning Side...


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#1 LordNothing

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 01:26 AM

...and only get 30% on the loosing side?

seems bonuses should encourage side leveling. but pgi in its infinite wisdom lets me win easy and get paid for it. that is why i am currently in the nova cats.

need to get rid of population bonuses in favor of a performance based system. winning factions give negative bonuses, loosing factions give positive.

Edited by LordNothing, 23 August 2017 - 01:28 AM.


#2 Jun Watarase

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 05:42 AM

Its a holdover from the days where it was supposed to encourage people to join the faction with the least players, when it was faction vs faction instead of IS vs clans. They never bothered to change it so mercs just abuse it to get free 50% rewards.

#3 FallingAce

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 07:49 AM

It's been brought up many times, including the last town hall, that the population numbers are skewed by inactive pilots/people that don't play Faction Warfare.

I pulled the numbers from the leader boards for the 1st month of the invasion era.

Posted Image

Too bad it's to much work for PGI to do the same.

A few observations:

Since there are now 12 factions , the target number is now 8.3% of the population (100%/12)

The top 6 factions should have zero or negative bonuses. Instead it's the opposite.

Also the total off all contract bonuses should be zero, not +160 (highlighted on the chart).It's hard for the mercs not to abuse the system.

Can't wait till PGI add another +50 faction with Clan Diamond Shark.

#4 Spheroid

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 08:03 AM

No what is actually needed is several different money modifiers working both for and against each other in concert to provide the necessary amount of dynamic feedback for balancing.

I propose these variables: lore equipment bonus, population bonus and territorial control bonus.

As an example the Clan with the most meta decks assuming exclusivity is probably the Smoke Jags. However given their popularity and their power there will arise an equilibrium point somewhere on the star map where any unit dropping on that front will find that combat in that area unprofitable and thus drop elsewhere via the shared bucket system.

One trades money for either pushing into a front or brining the perfect meta deck overcoming the expense of non-faction availability. These tipping points are different for each and every faction and they are self-balancing. The balance point for a Liao player is different than a Marik. The same can be said of the Clans.

In such a way a faction loyalist or merc who does not want to get stomped need only remain in place to eventually earn a "vaccation" from pain as the monetary enticement of combat shifts seal clubbing mercs to other fronts. Via the c-bill economy a pug can dial in their own difficulty depending on the payout as the ratio of pugs to mercs changes depending on the territorial integrity of their respective fronts. Defenders on a low paying front can't ignore it forever though as planet tags and money still are involved.

Because we have bucket sharing, the call to arms will be answered by some random assemblage of disparate factions with non-uniform equipment decks.

This approach would mainly alter where mercs drop as the profit motivates them to move to the troublespots on the map. A loyalist pug not wanting to engage on their front could always bucket share somewhere else on the map where the lack of money would favor a higher ratio of pug vs. pug combat.

My system requires separate fronts to work and I believe it could if work if the cease fire timer was disabled as it has in previous events. The progress bar would be saved at ceasefire but not reset, that way planet capture would be fought in a relaxed manner over days on various places on the map. Without the ceasefire dead line the single front concentration problem of earlier CW iterations will not arise.

Edited by Spheroid, 23 August 2017 - 08:36 AM.


#5 Jun Watarase

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 02:40 AM

View PostFallingAce, on 23 August 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

It's been brought up many times, including the last town hall, that the population numbers are skewed by inactive pilots/people that don't play Faction Warfare.

I pulled the numbers from the leader boards for the 1st month of the invasion era.

Posted Image

Too bad it's to much work for PGI to do the same.

A few observations:

Since there are now 12 factions , the target number is now 8.3% of the population (100%/12)

The top 6 factions should have zero or negative bonuses. Instead it's the opposite.

Also the total off all contract bonuses should be zero, not +160 (highlighted on the chart).It's hard for the mercs not to abuse the system.

Can't wait till PGI add another +50 faction with Clan Diamond Shark.


But there are only two factions now? Clan vs IS?

#6 Commander A9

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 04:37 AM

Performance bonus? Low-population incentive?

#7 Jman5

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 07:23 AM

PGI really has dropped the ball on the contract system. The whole thing is incredibly frustrating because there are easy fixes if they would just give it a little attention.

1. Contract awards based on active population. (has played a FP game in the last 2 weeks.)

2. Contract system simply IS or Clan instead of 12 factions until you make factions more than just flavor text.

3. Reset loyalties bi-annually to let players move around more freely.

They could probably do all this in an afternoon.

#8 Kill Chain

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 10:41 AM

I agree this needs to be fixed.

#9 Lovas

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 11:46 AM

View PostJun Watarase, on 23 August 2017 - 05:42 AM, said:

...so mercs just abuse it to get free 50% rewards.

Can't really say mercs abuse it - we didn't design this crappy system. We are in fact playing it the way PGI wants us to.

With the buckets the way they are, all mercs should just sign an IS or Clan contract. That is really a no brainer that I can't believe they haven't done yet.

If there was some sort of real economy within the factions, mercs could also register themselves on a true MRBC (not the league the players made up, but a true mercenary review board) and have houses/clans bid for their services, and that is the only time a merc unit would sport a house/clan tag. This could be beneficial for events where house/clan ranks matter, or if certain planets were desired they could hire the best mercs to win it for them. If specific houses/clans do not need merc services they default back to just IS or Clan.

Edited by Lovas, 27 August 2017 - 11:58 AM.


#10 Kwea

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 12:23 PM

that's CRAZY talk, Lovas.... I LIKE it.

#11 LordNothing

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 05:54 AM

View PostJman5, on 27 August 2017 - 07:23 AM, said:

PGI really has dropped the ball on the contract system. The whole thing is incredibly frustrating because there are easy fixes if they would just give it a little attention.

1. Contract awards based on active population. (has played a FP game in the last 2 weeks.)

2. Contract system simply IS or Clan instead of 12 factions until you make factions more than just flavor text.

3. Reset loyalties bi-annually to let players move around more freely.

They could probably do all this in an afternoon.


good ideas but im thinking instead of 1, base payouts on performance of the faction rather than the population.

#12 SuperFunkTron

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 07:18 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 28 August 2017 - 05:54 AM, said:


good ideas but im thinking instead of 1, base payouts on performance of the faction rather than the population.

Unless you put an inverse relationship on payouts and performance, you will end up with the best performing faction growing larger as their meteoric rise incentivizes their snowballing victory.

#13 LordNothing

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:30 AM

View PostSuperFunkTron, on 28 August 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

Unless you put an inverse relationship on payouts and performance, you will end up with the best performing faction growing larger as their meteoric rise incentivizes their snowballing victory.


of course it would be an inverse relationship. the reverse doesnt make any sense. i dont really like snowball mechanics.

there has to be diminishing returns. its also more realistic. a faction thats doing well has no incentive to pay its mercs more, if anything its going to try to cut its rates because there is no need to incentivize better performance, they are already getting the best there is. a desprate faction on the other hand will be cracking out its financial reserves in order to preserve its power base against an advancing enemy.

the winning side might pay out more on average but a very narrow spread based on performance. doing well doesnt pay that much more than doing poorly. the loosing side pays less on average but has a much wider spread. doing well pays out huge while doing poorly falls well below average. if you are a top skill player the money is on the weaker side. you can turn those battles and get paid for it. if you arent as good you can opt to play on the winning to increase your payouts over time, but you will face the units working for the underdog. if you go with the loosing side you get what you earn and fight more of your type of player on the other side.

beauty of it is you can make the whole system dynamic. its only math. no pgi intervention aside from tweaking the weights until the desired effect is established.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 August 2017 - 10:58 AM.


#14 FallingAce

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:49 AM

View PostJman5, on 27 August 2017 - 07:23 AM, said:

PGI really has dropped the ball on the contract system. The whole thing is incredibly frustrating because there are easy fixes if they would just give it a little attention.

1. Contract awards based on active population. (has played a FP game in the last 2 weeks.)

2. Contract system simply IS or Clan instead of 12 factions until you make factions more than just flavor text.

3. Reset loyalties bi-annually to let players move around more freely.

They could probably do all this in an afternoon.


It took me less than 2 hours to take the information from my 2 screenshots, manually enter the numbers into a spreadsheet, apply formulas built into the spred sheet, and output the numbers.

PGI already has the tools to output the leader board and apply those numbers to the in game contracts. Any decent programmer could probably automate this in less than an hour.

#15 Spheroid

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 11:04 AM

The fact that such obvious improvements have not been implemented as yet is rather damning proof that NO ONE is doing any active work on CW whatsoever.

They should just surrender the code into the public domain. Gamers can do a better job for free then whatever the hell they are currently doing.

Edited by Spheroid, 28 August 2017 - 11:06 AM.


#16 LordNothing

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 11:07 AM

View PostSpheroid, on 28 August 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

The fact that such obvious improvements have not been implemented as yet is rather damning proof that NO ONE is doing any active work on CW whatsoever.

They should just surrender the code into the public domain. Gamers can do a better job for free then whatever the hell they are currently doing.


civil war was supposed to be a major changeup in fp but it more or less is the same game, they just put clan space on the map. if anything they just set it up so that they wouldnt have to do manual resets of the map periodically. this alone shows that they intend to abandon efforts on the mode rather than put more in. you dont automate routine tasks unless you want to maintain the status quo.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 August 2017 - 11:09 AM.


#17 Spheroid

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 11:27 AM

But why is the mode to be abandoned? If anything from a business standpoint CW was the most prudent area to invest resources in.

I have 350+ mechbays. I intended on filling those bays with combinations of mechs that met the tonnage and map requirements in wave attrition combat. Because of that I have numerous duplicates including fourteen Battlemasters. How many mechs does the average player need for QP? Certaintly not several hundred. One to two dozen provides a fairly good sampling of combat variety.

The skilltree doesn't earn PGI any money as it is a c-bill sink, not an MC sink. Each mechbay costs nothing to produce and generates pure profit. Also whats the point of producing faction colors and camo if the mode is not supported?

Mechpack fatigue is a very real threat. In terms of powercreep the show is largely over once the Bane, Rifleman-IIC, Wahammer-IIC and Piranha come out. Whats the backup plan when the well runs dry? They better have one in mind as a graceful segue from MWO to MW5 is highly unlikely to be smooth or on schedule.

Edited by Spheroid, 28 August 2017 - 11:50 AM.


#18 SuperFunkTron

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 12:30 PM

View PostLordNothing, on 28 August 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:


there has to be diminishing returns. its also more realistic. a faction thats doing well has no incentive to pay its mercs more, if anything its going to try to cut its rates because there is no need to incentivize better performance, they are already getting the best there is. a desprate faction on the other hand will be cracking out its financial reserves in order to preserve its power base against an advancing enemy.

the winning side might pay out more on average but a very narrow spread based on performance. doing well doesnt pay that much more than doing poorly. the loosing side pays less on average but has a much wider spread. doing well pays out huge while doing poorly falls well below average. if you are a top skill player the money is on the weaker side. you can turn those battles and get paid for it. if you arent as good you can opt to play on the winning to increase your payouts over time, but you will face the units working for the underdog. if you go with the loosing side you get what you earn and fight more of your type of player on the other side.


Adding a system like this would be a great way to encourage balance and dynamic shifts. I, as one who feels CW still needs a lot of "fluff" to be fleshed out , think it would even be easily justifiable in the context of galactic atmosphere. An added variable could be the "logistical" issue that comes with expanding fronts. The farther a faction expands from their home bases, the lower the pay out as logistical causes would rise. So as to not completely halt progress and prevent the creation of a "permanent contended zone", those logistical ranges could be reduced with the time that a conquered area is held. The distance of the fight of the Logistical front to the Battlefront can be tiered so that increasing distance increases the reduced income for the invading faction.

Example: There would be a Battlefront and a Logistical front marker for both factions. The Battlefront would move in real time as planets are conquered where the Logistical front would move at a rate 2-4 times slower (i.e. 2-4 battle phases to added the newly conquered planet to the logistical front and restore full rewards). This way, Factions that advance quickly will show a reasonably realistic strain in keeping up with a faced pace advance and thus encourage fighting in different areas of the Battlefront.

On the side losing territory, the reduced "Logistical Expenditure" would allow for increasing the reward for successful defense of their territory and thus incentivize a chance to push the enemy back for extra rewards. The Logistical Front for the side losing territory can follow the same mechanics as the advancing side while creating a window in which recently lost planets can be recaptured without losing the "infrastructure" that was temporarily held by the invading force.

Obviously, multiple Battlefronts are needed for this, but allowing at least 2-4 theaters of action would allow for a much more interesting CW map, while introducing a dynamic incentives system would help give impact and meaning to the collective victories and losses beyond changing the colors of dots on the map.

View PostSpheroid, on 28 August 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

The fact that such obvious improvements have not been implemented as yet is rather damning proof that NO ONE is doing any active work on CW whatsoever.

They should just surrender the code into the public domain. Gamers can do a better job for free then whatever the hell they are currently doing.

We have to wait to see the full scope of what is implemented in September to see how much effort they will be putting into FP. The fact that the complete experience of this game is battles, the only way to add anything meaningful beyond "kill or assist in these ways for rewards" is to create an out of battle system that can collectively show the sum of those victories and losses as well as make those out of battle experiences interesting enough to care about. Russ said that something to the effect of incentivizing Faction Specific Mechs was doable and a good way of adding flavor to FP. It is a minor change, but significant at the same time for those who have some interest in Battletech lore and would like to see some differences between the Factions. It's a soft change, but one that could eventually influence load outs typically seen in certain factions and even potentially affect payouts based on difficulty to use certain mechs (Russ mentioned building a tier system in the process of building Solaris, so this could be a real means of determining payouts).

I think one of the issues slowing down development of FP is that not enough of the community is demanding that it be addressed and given the fluff it needs to be more engaging. There is a portion of players commenting during town halls and podcasts, but it is small in comparison to those asking for other issues to be addressed first.

#19 Willard Phule

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 05:39 AM

It's a "carrying" bonus.

If your team manages to carry it's potato weight to victory, it gets a larger bonus than the team that was unable to carry it's LRM boats and taters well enough.

Always been that way. MWO was designed with the principle of "the better you are, the more you carry." Are you new or something?





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