51 replies to this topic

[Smites]

Greetings MechWarriors. I have a simple question. Are we really likely to see custom geometry with the proposed bolt-on system when Inverse Kinematics are, at the very least, infeasible and resource intensive? How can we add, for example, another shield arm to a Centurion without complicating hit-reg? Or will it be minor things - like some extra spikey pauldrons?

[N0ni]

My guess it would just be aesthetic for example the custom geometry on the Invasion Timberwolf, doesn't affect hitreg at all.

Basically just another thing to make your mech unique in addition to paint, camo, and decals.

[Moebius Pi]

They're cosmetic and don't affect hitboxes, as they've stated. So yes, spikey, more battleworn, more reinforced looking etc. but it sounds like the overall shape isn't affected. I imagine hitting a spike is like hitting an antenna or they're so low profile (see the special geo on the Black Knight from preorders) as to be a non-issue.

Oddly I'm looking forwards to these despite craving much more significant areas of the game being addressed.

Edited by Moebius Pi, 20 August 2017 - 02:20 PM.

[Rovertoo]

They said they wont effect hitboxes, and that the bolt on components should slough off the mech when they are hit by any incoming fire, so it wont interfere with much of anything at all. I imagine it will be kind of like the current decal system, just unscalable 3D pieces instead. The Atlases people make will be sweet though

[Trenchbird]

Rovertoo, on 20 August 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

They said they wont effect hitboxes, and that the bolt on components should slough off the mech when they are hit by any incoming fire, so it wont interfere with much of anything at all. I imagine it will be kind of like the current decal system, just unscalable 3D pieces instead. The Atlases people make will be sweet though

IIRC they are supposed be like "destroyable" versions of custom geo on existing mechs.

[JediPanther]

It'll be like the (f) and (P) mechs. The extra bars/cage on the phoenix locust are there for just looks while obscuring your already cramped view even more.

[AncientRaig]

"Inverse kinematics are infeasible and resource intensive" Meanwhile, back in 1999.........

It makes me sad to see people who actually believe PGI's ******** about Mech IK, knockdowns, and all that being "impossible" or "unfeasible".

[LordBraxton]

Yeah PGI is just lazy as all hell. Knockdowns should be in too, the only real reason they are gone is so they don't need to make animations for every new mech.

[Xetelian]

LordBraxton, on 20 August 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

Yeah PGI is just lazy as all hell. Knockdowns should be in too, the only real reason they are gone is so they don't need to make animations for every new mech.

Sure, it has nothing to do with the fact that you could stun lock someone indefinitely. That firepower was less important than engine size so you could bowl people all in each engagement and shoot them for free.




I can agree that they don't want to make falling animations for hundreds of mechs but I think it has more to do with balance in general than just difficulty.






As someone said, and as they stated, these will be purely cosmetic and the hit boxes are not changing.

[o0m9]

IK was canned because Cryengine only applies them client side while the server just orients the leg hitboxes normally. This means you can put an alpha into a leg and miss because the hitboxes don't line up with the visual model on your screen.

[Jun Watarase]

o0m9, on 20 August 2017 - 07:15 PM, said:

IK was canned because Cryengine only applies them client side while the server just orients the leg hitboxes normally. This means you can put an alpha into a leg and miss because the hitboxes don't line up with the visual model on your screen.

Why isnt this an issue with Crysis or other cryengine games? Surely people would have noticed if they shot someone's leg in crysis and it missed because the hitboxes arent lined up correctly?

[The Basilisk]

Smites, on 20 August 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

Greetings MechWarriors. I have a simple question. Are we really likely to see custom geometry with the proposed bolt-on system when Inverse Kinematics are, at the very least, infeasible and resource intensive? How can we add, for example, another shield arm to a Centurion without complicating hit-reg? Or will it be minor things - like some extra spikey pauldrons?

There is a significant difference between texturing and adding some pixels and shading to a mechs "skin" and the collision detection/colision scan ratio of the game.

As far as I'm informed the incline or inverse kinematcs would be an active feedback system that scans mech collision "boxes" with its sourroundings and gets a feedback from the gameserver.
Either you increase this scanratio to an insane level causing massive server strain and traffic and now suffering supream fom unstable ping and laggs or you are "delocalising" the legg hitboxes due to low scanratio and MWOs system of Host state reversion system that is responsible for equalizing different pings of players.
So those two systems would interfere, Legg hitboxes/collision boxes will start to jump around making lights and faster mechs near invulnerable.

Thing is there are so many workaround solutions in MWO that adding actual new stuff that is related to the real gameplay and not to the mech hangar and the games sourroundings has gotten pretty much impossible without having to rework much of all this jury riged patchwork of a game.

Edited by The Basilisk, 21 August 2017 - 12:03 AM.

[JC Daxion]

Moebius Pi, on 20 August 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

Oddly I'm looking forwards to these despite craving much more significant areas of the game being addressed.

Well unless you want more mechs, This additions has ZERO effect on anything else in the game. It is all about the art team modelers, outside of a bit of skin work, which is again the art team that sets up the skin for where things are placed.


So basically Nothing in this side of the solaris update has anything to do with the game. Unless of course you are talking about solaris mode in general, spectator, or maps.. But this bolt on stuff Nodda.

Edited by JC Daxion, 21 August 2017 - 12:17 AM.

[JC Daxion]

LordBraxton, on 20 August 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

Yeah PGI is just lazy as all hell. Knockdowns should be in too, the only real reason they are gone is so they don't need to make animations for every new mech.

actually that is not the issue. the main issue with KD was because they were not the same on every client or server. I don't know why this was happening, but that is the main issues with KD's. The added animation is another part, but the reason why it was canned in the first place was that issue.

I don't know why it is a big deal technically, but it is. Another game that is running into the exact same thing is "mount and blade 2" They have a big issue with castle debris falling and not being the same on everyone's screen, which was causing an issue with the units having to dodge it on some, or go around larger rocks, while the other client didn't have it in the same place. I am not an engineer, so i don't know why it happens, But i can see how that would be a huge issue. The technical side, i am sure far more of a problem than an easy fix. If it was, games would not be running into it as an issue in the first place. In fact it was such a big deal for them, it caused another Huge delay in the game.

Edited by JC Daxion, 21 August 2017 - 12:23 AM.

[JC Daxion]

AncientRaig, on 20 August 2017 - 06:36 PM, said:

"Inverse kinematics are infeasible and resource intensive" Meanwhile, back in 1999.........

It makes me sad to see people who actually believe PGI's ******** about Mech IK, knockdowns, and all that being "impossible" or "unfeasible".

He did not say it was impossible, or unfeasible.. he said, "We would have to invest a good amount of dev time to do the feature." KD's were an entirely different issue, as i stated in another post in this thread.. And AGAIN it all comes down to.. do you really want them to spend 3-4+ months making knockdowns, or work on something else?

Take a poll if you like, but i'll just guess as with everything else in this game,.. No one can agree on anything.. Other than we want new maps.. But even new maps can't even be decided on which people want. Like some love old frozen, some love the new frozen.. some like hot, some like rainy, some like city, some like wide open.. I'd doubt people could even come up with a single map type they want.. Maybe.. City, but that is coming.. Still size, how open ext is all up for we have no clue what will please people because they are all over the place.

[Adridos]

JC Daxion, on 21 August 2017 - 12:22 AM, said:

actually that is not the issue. the main issue with KD was because they were not the same on every client or server. I don't know why this was happening, but that is the main issues with KD's.

It was happening because PGI made it so. Programming client-server relationship, lag compensation and all that jazz is not an easy thing and requires skilled programmers with good management and timely implementation (i.e. not 5 years into a game's development, that is lunacy).

Likewise, the IK situation came about because the lag compensation system PGI developed for roughly 3 or so years if my memory serves me right, wasn't designed with any more complex animations in mind. They crossed their fingers in hopes it wouldn't be so noticable because implementing IK into it would mean getting new engineers familiar with the software monster that the system inevitably has to be to have had such long and painful development. In the end, they'd have to throw it out and rewrite from the ground up because they screwed up on their planning. And it was deemed too costly to do.


Game development is always a matter of you making your bed and then sleeping in it. There are no magical beings adding malicious pieces of code into the current fork while you sleep. It's solely on you and your buddies in the studio, always has been.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

ok ...IK is canceled ...to many Problems with the Hitreg ..ok for Mechs with IK play in Future HBS Games

[C E Dwyer]

Well it's pretty obvious really, they can't make money out of I.K or knock downs.

But they can make money out of spiky armour cosmetics because there is bound to be enough cretins playing the game that really want to turn it into Warhammer 40K

Edited by Cathy, 21 August 2017 - 02:35 AM.

[kesmai]

Well, IK is not a lua or excel spreadsheet.
Guess what that means.

[CheeseThief]

Cathy, on 21 August 2017 - 02:34 AM, said:

But they can make money out of spiky armour cosmetics because there is bound to be enough cretins playing the game that really want to turn it into Warhammer 40K

Mechwarrior isn't Mechwarrior without the cool robots, and I am willing to pay to make mine look cooler.

Then along comes the suggestion that I can not only make cool robots look cooler, but I can give them a cool looking hanger that I and my friends can walk around admiring all the cool in.


If you need me I will be off comforting my wallet...

Edited by CheeseThief, 21 August 2017 - 02:41 AM.