257 replies to this topic

[The Lighthouse]

sceii, on 31 August 2017 - 06:49 AM, said:

Six PPC stalkers are ultimate balancing?

After you shoot all six PPCs, you are either overheated or nearly 100%. You are also completely useless against target that is within 90m.

At best, NONE of the mechs available actually can reliably carry more than 4 PPCs and not being bad, even if the ghost heat is removed. Other than range issue, IS LPL is still far superior to PPC as well. It will be IS LPL that can be problematic if the ghost heat is removed.

But even that is rather doubtful, since we already have mechs doing 60+ alpha strike, and pre-patch PPC + Gauss were already doing 50 + 10 alpha strike reliably, even with less heat involved. Removing ghost heat actually change little for current situation, this very reason proves that the ghost heat is completely useless while it is lore-breaking and even more newbie unfriendly.

[C4NC3R]

sceii, on 31 August 2017 - 06:49 AM, said:

Six PPC stalkers are ultimate balancing?

Six PPC Stalker is free bacon, you've better be worry about 4xHPPC Banshee or Annie. They can easy strech your Clamer's Arse into Oblivion.
Btw whole this thread is an nonsence of absurd cause, atm... not lazors rule the house, but dakka and missiles. Just look at ATM-Pootarting, or MRM squash, or all the Dakka In Da House we got from Potato Tier to PUGtato Tier-1.

Edited by C4NC3R, 31 August 2017 - 09:53 AM.

[CraneArmy]

First... Strikes are waaaay worse than vomit, and it really should be the first thing addressed, if anything.

You are right though, vomit is pretty powerful. At higher teirs, its very strong.

The catch is, for casual players vomit is no stronger than missles or dakka. For high teir 1 solo quick plays Vomit is stronger than everything. For organized competitive groups (cw or comp queue) vomit is usually weaker than brawl (map dependent ofc), and sometimes erppc's or erll are still the best choice.

The question we all need to answer is what kind of player and game mode should the game be balanced around?

At the moment, it is clear that the game is balanced around casual players, as shown by the multiple AC nerfs that have happened over the past year or so.

I dont think that balancing the game around teir 1 solo queue is smart because average players wont undersand the balance changes, and its not really a "competitive" game mode, its like the arcade mode of the game. At the same time, I dont know that balancing it around casual players is wrong, most people that play this game are casual players, and that is great

The wildcard here is the spectator mode in solaris, because it will give every player an insight into how top players play. I'm hoping this will also eventually feature comp queue games. Hopefully this time next year, 8v8 comp queue is starting to become the target for game balance. It would by far be the coolest thing the game could be balanced around, and I hope a strong competitive scene would bring in more players from outside the community. But, you cant balance the game around high level play if the average player cant understand it.

I think possibly one option to hit lasers pretty good in QP in the meantime, without actually playing with weapon balance is just to add another hot dakka friendly map to the rotation. I've actually been thinking about this for a while I think I'm going to make a thread about it after this, but I have always loved Vitric forge, if we could get a map with new topography that used all the old assets from Vitric in a QP map I would be super happy.

[The Lighthouse]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 August 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

They may have kicked certain boats in the nuts (specifically ML boats), but not all. ERLL/LL spam was unreal in MW4 for a majority of its history.

I love MW4 and still consider it the smarter game (it just lacked a consistent development team like most multiplayer games have these days), but it had its fair share of boats.

If my memory cells have not committed seppuku yet; One of the reason why that spam was so powerful was that in MW4, lasers did not have any 'burn' mechanics. They were instant-hit scan. IF MW4 aiming mechanics were same as MWO, lasers would had been utterly overpowered.

Again, depend whom asked, you will probably get different answer for which weapons were overpowered in MW4. Some would say lasers, others say Gauss Rfile, and so forth.

Me, all I remember was super tanky mechs that just refused to die, that's all I remember.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Lighthouse, on 31 August 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

One of the reason why that spam was so powerful was that in MW4, lasers did not have any 'burn' mechanics. They were instant-hit scan.

Correct, they were hit-scan PPFLD.

The Lighthouse, on 31 August 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

Again, depend whom asked, you will probably get different answer for which weapons were overpowered in MW4. Some would say lasers, others say Gauss Rfile, and so forth.

That's because the spud population of MW4 thought the Gauss/PPC poptarts were the most fearsome thing, but at the "highest" level of MW4 play that happened to play in the same rules of MWO (FFP, H, LA, NR), laser vomit was king. 7 gun Nova Cats, 6 gun Timber Wolves, Ninja SCat/Ryo, etc.

[J0anna]

For the OP, why not ask PGI to buff Dakka instead.....

[C4NC3R]

OP is a bit unaware of such fact that nerfing "laser vomit" would increase TTK, but not for all, only for heavies and assaults, and the victims will be lights and meds at first place.

And than comes the question: - [Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 31 August 2017 - 10:18 AM.
insult

[Valhallan]

If the heatcap was reigned in (HS Cap + heattable, 14 to reach current 100% heat shutdown, 30 = boom), Vanilla 6xppc stalker firing = instaboomed stalker, 4x would get around 80%, you can still barely fire a second alpha but would take a bunch of heat damage,

4x HPPC will be instaboomed. even on fatter mechs

If the DHS fix was also implemented, making them trudubs but fixing magic crits, 4x stalker would get bumped to around 90%, second alpha = boom

OTOH, considering the current quarks, a full weapon/ops stock-NVA-prime could actually alpha those 12 CERMLS, (20% heat reduc, 5.1x12=61.2, 18DHS(1.15)+30=71.4 taking some heat damage for it's trouble, but it won't instaboom, not sure if thats a good or bad thing .

[Jun Watarase]

J0anna, on 31 August 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

For the OP, why not ask PGI to buff Dakka instead.....

To what levels do you want to buff dakka? IS AC 20 seems fine except for the projectile speed. Then you compare it to 2 LPLs. How do you want to buff the AC 20 to compete with 2x LPLs (and the fact that you can fire 3 without ghost heat)?

Theres a reason why almost all mechs in the first three waves on non-hot maps are laser vomit.

[Verilligo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 August 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

Correct, they were hit-scan PPFLD.


That's because the spud population of MW4 thought the Gauss/PPC poptarts were the most fearsome thing, but at the "highest" level of MW4 play that happened to play in the same rules of MWO (FFP, H, LA, NR), laser vomit was king. 7 gun Nova Cats, 6 gun Timber Wolves, Ninja SCat/Ryo, etc.

You can basically condense competitive MW4 down to ECM/BAP/JJ Black Knights with six Clan ER Large Lasers. I forget the max it could mount at a time, six or seven, but that's what the meta was. It was all poptarts, all the time. Even on dense city maps, you pretty much fought the same thing. There was no reason to take anything else, barring the occasional odd fellow that decided to load 4-5 ERLL and one gauss, but that was somewhat of a rarity.

Of course, a lot of competitive leagues also decided fights based on more than a single round. Generally you fought one round with a lower weight limit, where the most you would have would be mediums, then another with another with a raised limit. I think some leagues may have also done a third match with uncapped limits. But basically it was just ERLL spam. You rip off a side torso if your opponent's geometry was easy to determine, then you shot into the destroyed torso because that amplified your damage by skipping the opponent's mounted CT armor.

Laser vomit in this game is nothing like the cancer that was MW4 competitive.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Verilligo, on 31 August 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

You can basically condense competitive MW4 down to ECM/BAP/JJ Black Knights with six Clan ER Large Lasers. I forget the max it could mount at a time, six or seven, but that's what the meta was. It was all poptarts, all the time. Even on dense city maps, you pretty much fought the same thing. There was no reason to take anything else, barring the occasional odd fellow that decided to load 4-5 ERLL and one gauss, but that was somewhat of a rarity.

I was more talking puretech since MWO is puretech as well but pretty much the same issue. Though the 3 Lt Gauss Thanny was one of the few mechs that could compete with green laser vomit.

[Verilligo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 31 August 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

I was more talking puretech since MWO is puretech as well but pretty much the same issue. Though the 3 Lt Gauss Thanny was one of the few mechs that could compete with green laser vomit.

Yeah, I forgot all about puretech rules, the league my clan was briefly a part of didn't have those rules in place. Explains why I don't remember the 3 LGauss Thanny, it's pretty middling in comparison to the eternal wave of green vomit, even if it's strong in its own right. Then again my perspective is tainted by having been young, stupid, and brawl-loving. Well, brawling and Long Tom Rocketmeching.

[CraneArmy]

CraneArmy, on 31 August 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

I think possibly one option to hit lasers pretty good in QP in the meantime, without actually playing with weapon balance is just to add another hot dakka friendly map to the rotation. I've actually been thinking about this for a while I think I'm going to make a thread about it after this, but I have always loved Vitric forge, if we could get a map with new topography that used all the old assets from Vitric in a QP map I would be super happy.

Thread is here with a poll if anyone wants to throw in their $0.02

https://mwomercs.com...-map-a-hot-one/

[Llymrel]

There is no problem with Lasers. PGI is the only FPS out there that has no type of error inducement when firing weapons. That allows any players to always hit where they shoot with some weapons. AC, LBX, SRMs, LRMs spread fire and are often thought of as inferior unless short range brawling. PPC's take skill since you have to lead the target at any decent range. When you take a mixed build, all the weapons have different drop and speeds making it tough to alpha a moving target at any medium + range. The exclusions are laser and gauss. Both are essentially hit where you point weapons, and people with good connections, good equipment, and good hand / eye coordination can tear apart others.

You don't need to nerf lasers, you just need to be like any other FPS and have the weapons all point slightly different from each other so they don't triangulate on a single mech component at 1000m.

This obviously isn't new info for PGI as they have done a lot of tuning regarding laser burn times and ranges. It just isn't enough to offset the instant hit at any range effect. More than likely they don't have the skillset or capability to implement any type of firing error system or they already would have done so. Its not like we're getting that team that just finished Battlefield 2 before they started on MWO.

Given that the problem is really a game design problem, and the roadmap essentially says nothing is happening of significance for MWO before the release of MW5, well...not really a reason to ask for a fix.

If you can't get over the laser vomit problem, then just join the rest of people voting with their play time. That can help get more people complaining how match maker doesn't work....hmm population?

[Y E O N N E]

Llymrel, on 31 August 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

There is no problem with Lasers. PGI is the only FPS out there that has no type of error inducement when firing weapons. That allows any players to always hit where they shoot with some weapons. AC, LBX, SRMs, LRMs spread fire and are often thought of as inferior unless short range brawling.

...

You don't need to nerf lasers, you just need to be like any other FPS and have the weapons all point slightly different from each other so they don't triangulate on a single mech component at 1000m.

This is a bogus take.

You prove your first sentence wrong with your third and, if by some twisted logic you think that doesn't count, then I can come back and say Quake Champions has no error inducement, either, maintaining the falsity of that first sentence.

Furthermore, and this is even more fundamental, most other FPS don't give you multiple weapons that fire simultaneously, but that is a red herring anyway. The weapon combinations you can field in MWO are roughly equivalent to the single weapons you field in other FPS. The only damage archetype that MWO does not feature as a player weapon is AoE/splash, but we have our sniper rifle (Gauss/ERPPC/Lasers), our machine gun (UAC/RAC boats/tiny lasers), and our shotgun (LB-X and SRM).

[Lily from animove]

Yeonne Greene, on 31 August 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

This is a bogus take.

You prove your first sentence wrong with your third and, if by some twisted logic you think that doesn't count, then I can come back and say Quake Champions has no error inducement, either, maintaining the falsity of that first sentence.

Furthermore, and this is even more fundamental, most other FPS don't give you multiple weapons that fire simultaneously, but that is a red herring anyway. The weapon combinations you can field in MWO are roughly equivalent to the single weapons you field in other FPS. The only damage archetype that MWO does not feature as a player weapon is AoE/splash, but we have our sniper rifle (Gauss/ERPPC/Lasers), our machine gun (UAC/RAC boats/tiny lasers), and our shotgun (LB-X and SRM).

Like snipers which are a PPFLD one shot kill on heads. And **** tons of games have exactly those. in MWO you just need to construct your sniper and then it's quite hard to do instant kills or make them PPFLD's

[Llymrel]

Have your opinions, and they are not real comparisons. Finding single example flaws doesn't obsolete the premise which neither of you bothered to actually address. Black Ops and others the sniper builds require specific situations and game modes. They are still rock paper scissors to other builds in any decently designed game. In MWO, that sniper can core you at 1000m or 50m all the same. No error on aiming is a problem. Most sniper games have the scope sway and move requiring some timing and skill. Most games induce error and sway when you're running, but not MWO. Most games have the mid range weapons requiring many hits to kill unless you're in some hardcore game mode. In MWO, the direct fire builds can often kill medium and lighter mechs in a single shot. You can run at full speed with no error in firing other than your personal ability to use the mouse or joystick. The game's design enables maximizing targeting with no hit delay weapons. As I stated earlier, note how much PGI has worked on tweaking laser burn times in their attempt to spread laser fire to multiple locations. It's not like laser vomit is an unknown problem to the dev team. They obviously can't do much about it other than making lasers take even longer to fire. Everyone can complain about laser vomit and ghost heat, and obviously not much PGI is capable of doing to address the root issue of targeting other than extending burn time and hope you can't track with the mouse that long. We can hope they fix their targeting system in MW5, but it's PGI so.....

Glad you can find one game out of 100s titles to prove your point. You're a rock star. Try to do better when you want to argue..

[MW Waldorf Statler]

HammerMaster, on 26 August 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Convergence.

by players thats most still standing Facetanking in 20 m ?Or by targets thats now by PGI 18m Tall in 300m ...only a Blind fold cant hit a Skyscraper...let us use Snowballs or Stones ...why play Guys a Combatgame ,when she will never die ? play the TT and nerf/buffs the Dice...thats in a MW Game thats its the First ,tahts Have Beam-over-Time ! and not Pointdamage like the older Games..or give the Game real Ranges for Weapons ...to Hit a 3Pixel mech in 3000 m is harder as in 300m ...,by the Way ,thats the Next problem ..allThis Gamepad/Gaming whell/Joystick-Aiming users and many News not hit a target thats Moved and further away as 100m...and all the ******* players thats run all the Time in the highest Zoomlevel and seeing Nothing, or run to the enemy to crouching in his Cockpit ...or only Used Brawls ,with hes terrible Aimingthats the real problem..all the Kids and Egomanic Narcists thats not have tactical awarness, Teamplay-abbility and only search the personal fast Highscore like Spaceinvaders

Quote

They are still rock paper scissors to other builds in any decently designed game. In MWO, that sniper can core you at 1000m or 50m all the same. No error on aiming is a problem. Most sniper games have the scope sway and move requiring some timing and skill. Most games induce error and sway when you're running, but not MWO.

A Mech is a Warmachine ,not a Guy thats hold the gun with the Hand , aim over primitives optics with his simple eyes
where muscles are shaking with exhaustion and the biggest problem of any human shooter ... he breathes !!!!

Weapons to Hard in MWO? play MWLL against tanks and Aerospacefighters ...im will seeing the Whining by other TT Mechanics..you less to many Armor=crash to Ground, You became a headshot =fainting or death, you less a Leg=crash to ground and crippled ...Counter against Enemys with good Aim -Shakes ...LRMs, ACs ..fast Movement ...not play a Big Slow target ,when you have not the Skill for it

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 01 September 2017 - 06:30 AM.