12 replies to this topic

[Maker L106]

I'm not talking necessarely about map balance but map design overall.

It's been somewhat of a complaint from the community for a while it seems. So much so that I remember PGI redoing several maps and making them far far different from years ago. That said most of the gametypes can be fixed by moving locations or changing attributes

Dom's locations

VIP route / ECM flags etc:

But you can't do that if your map design is ... bad. I'll say it. Bad. There are a few maps I really like but they're few, far between and hot AF. Terra and Caustic have always been two. One for mountain fights / rotational fighting the other for the volcanic areas and the multiple calderas and the tactics both maps can employ.

But there's a lot of maps I personally don't like and there's even more, since my bias really doesn't mean ****, that really need a retooling to be tactically sound maps.

HPG for example all the fighting happens in the middle most of the time. Understandable but atleast HPG's design is solid. Varying places to fight etc:

Without breaking down the maps in detail which would take more time and energy than I currently have (not to mention someone out there with better video recording / editing software could likely do a much better indepth job). I'll just put it like this. Maps with defined "lanes" like Forest where the fights always happen in one or two squares are typically the most aggravating to fight on. I'm not expecting Anihalators at 40+ kph to walk all the way across the map but I'd like there to be a great deal more variety in map design INSIDE each map.

Frozen City is basically a two urban areas separated by a large ditch then an open ice field. While that SOUNDS diverse everyone huddles to the cover because that's the sane thing to do. Fights inevidbly happen on the broken tower or in F7 predictably as you'd guess.

Play with QP solo, happens, group que (where I prefer to play) happens all the time too. Occasionally an objective makes you pay attention to it enough to fight, leave then return to the fight or something somewhat similar. But more often than not the objective game modes that aren't capture the points / incursion end in TDM mode with the objective as an afterthought.

That's not always the objectives fault. That's the placement, or the map design that factor into this as well...

or at least that's what I've noticed over the years. That said. Am I just off my rocker, or is there something to this line of thought?

[El Bandito]

Yes, it is less about how big the map is, and more about how much of the map gets used. Forest Colony is atrocious in that regard. At least in 12v12.

[Galenit]

Crimson : Big Mountain to run around
Frozen : Big valley to run around
River: Big Building to run around
Mining: Big Center to run around
Bog: Big mountain to run around
HPG: Big Structur to run around
Caustic: Big crater to run around
Grim: Centervalley to run around

Tourmalin: Big rocks to run around
Canyon: Big rocks to run around

Alpine: No nascar track
Polar: No nascar track
Terra: No obviously nascar track


8 Maps are like this is the center point lets build around it like in a model railway,
2 maps are like put a obviously structur and then lets build around it
3 maps dont lock like a kid has build a world in lego.

To bad most people like simple obviously maps where you just need to follow the tracks.
And they allway follow the tracks, whatever the enemy is doing, they follow the tracks.
Simple maps for simple minds?

Edited by Galenit, 27 August 2017 - 02:15 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Alpine has the Magic Mountain. They just moved the spawns so people tend to just bumrush each other next to it rather than scramble to the top (and run around).

[qS Sachiel]

more dynamic spawn points would be nice ;P

[Carl Vickers]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 August 2017 - 02:15 AM, said:

Alpine has the Magic Mountain. They just moved the spawns so people tend to just bumrush each other next to it rather than scramble to the top (and run around).

Took them how many years to get that done?

[El Bandito]

Carl Vickers, on 27 August 2017 - 04:25 AM, said:

Took them how many years to get that done?

4 years.

[JC Daxion]

Galenit, on 27 August 2017 - 02:13 AM, said:

Crimson : Big Mountain to run around
Frozen : Big valley to run around
River: Big Building to run around
Mining: Big Center to run around
Bog: Big mountain to run around
HPG: Big Structur to run around
Caustic: Big crater to run around
Grim: Centervalley to run around

Tourmalin: Big rocks to run around
Canyon: Big rocks to run around

Alpine: No nascar track
Polar: No nascar track
Terra: No obviously nascar track


8 Maps are like this is the center point lets build around it like in a model railway,
2 maps are like put a obviously structur and then lets build around it
3 maps dont lock like a kid has build a world in lego.

To bad most people like simple obviously maps where you just need to follow the tracks.
And they allway follow the tracks, whatever the enemy is doing, they follow the tracks.
Simple maps for simple minds?

You realize, that you could just set up a firing line, and not run around things right? OR just not fight in that area, like river city.. How many other great places are to fight besides the citadel? Yet i swear people don't even bother to try anything else.


It's not as much the maps as it is about the sheep

[Galenit]

JC Daxion, on 27 August 2017 - 04:49 AM, said:

It's not as much the maps as it is about the sheep

Just reread the 3 last rows of my post ...

[Wildstreak]

One of the problems I note is when a map has a big, wide area open in the center with cover around it.

Plexus - open center with few buildings and rock spires. Everyone hides, little movement across open areas, sometimes you get a whole team of people refusing to move.

New Frozen - open area above trench with buildings on both sides and little cover in trench. Only when one team pushes other side and opposing team stays do fights get interesting.

Polar - made the problem worse by giving even less cover around the open area.

All these wind up with camping teams who poke most of the time over open terrain.

River City used to be like this and still is but there are 3 spots that break up the "open center" problem that encourages this.

[MagicIndex]

Just give people something like this, with two bypasses....

[Maker L106]

MagicIndex, on 27 August 2017 - 05:50 AM, said:

Just give people something like this, with two bypasses....

The problem with 3 lane is that it inevitably ends up in the Rock Paper Scissors situation you see in FPS's most of the time where the dictated outcome hardly results in who's the better team (both mechanically and tactically) and more who ends up with the least amount of mistakes made in choosing where to start. Especially since its a one life game and not a respawn
type.

Galenit, on 27 August 2017 - 02:13 AM, said:

To bad most people like simple obviously maps where you just need to follow the tracks.
And they allway follow the tracks, whatever the enemy is doing, they follow the tracks.
Simple maps for simple minds?

This is what I see at polar highlands the most actually, people have no idea what to do when presented with a sandbox of options (polar actually has some) and if you even so much as open your mic and make suggestions they're often followed for better or worse because some direction is better than none.

I do agree some of it is team related (how could it not be) but a majority of the issues are maps littered with unreal levels of complication and clutter (bog) so everyones either the one man army John Rambo, or so scared that they can't see **** on that map that they're huddling together in abstract horror of the other metal monsters in the swamp. These aren't always potatoes or low tier players either. I've watched semi organized teams do the exact same thing.

The River City example is one i particularly like. Yeah its got about four or five places you can actually conduct a firefight. But its setup for exactly that. The map is designed in such a way where you're going to fight in those places with zero regard to how it should be layed out, or how the borders of the map need to be in relation to its design. I started off playing MWO and loved River City, now I dislike it greatly because 99% of the fights are citadel and it always turns into the same **** there. Clump in the middle, send flankers... every, damn, time. Mostly regardless the gametype too.

Yeonne Greene, on 27 August 2017 - 02:15 AM, said:

Alpine has the Magic Mountain. They just moved the spawns so people tend to just bumrush each other next to it rather than scramble to the top (and run around).

This actually has made Alpine one of my favorite maps for skirmish. An extreme variety of terrain even though its essentially a winter wasteland. Vertical space, sheer cliff sides, wide open areas and a few isolated "medium range" areas as well. It lacks a true CQB environment but the maps huge and also heavily favors the side that spawns with easy access to the mountain.

[Galenit]

It would help if each map has 4 different spawnpointsets choosed randomly.
One time you have a team at the north and one at the south,
next time its west and east and then it can also be no/sw or nw/so.

This would force, to some degree, another matchflow depending on witch spawnset is choosen and would leed to more variety.
Now put the old maps in the rotation and revome mapvoting.