18 replies to this topic

[Bersigil]

I could really use some help or explanations… I have 2 Timberwolves. One is a Laser Vomit build (2LPL, 5ERMLs), the other is a Dakka-Build (2UAC5 4ERML).

I use them parallel, so there is no good day or bad day, the statistics should be even - if the mechs where even. But over the last 150 games my W/L with the Laservomit is 1.14 (compared to the 0.60 with the Dakka), my K/D is 1.18 compared to 0.73 and the Damage done ist 30,667 to 23,394. So.. is the Dakka-Build simply inferior? Or is it me?

Edited by Bersigil, 12 September 2017 - 04:22 AM.

[Lily from animove]

it could be you, depends on the playstyle,

but generally I would say the laserwolf is better, as it can poke, vomit, retreat, and the 2uac 5's just need facetime which makes you get shot to death quicker.
further the UAC5's need ammo ad have quite some weight, so that build has less heatsinks to help the lasers cool down.

[Steel Raven]

I had a twin UAC/10 build until the UAC nerf, the Timber Wolf draws allot of fire to begin with so jams can very easily get you killed if your out of position (All my T-wolves are currently laser boats)

That said, I have the same twin UAC/5 build on my Hellbringer and it usually does very well. I do play more aggressively in a T-wolf so it probably does come down in art to playstyle.

[Koniving]

The issue becomes a matter of can you hit your target. You must lead ballistic weapons. This makes them incompatible to fire at the same time as your energy weapons. But energy weapons are compatible with energy weapons.

You also have 2 lasers doing 13 damage per shot plus 5 7 damage lasers.
Or 2 uac5s doing 2.5 damage per bullet, 5 per burst, and an unreliable firing rate with only 4x7 damage lasers.

Think about it. In no way could they compare statistically.

[Bersigil]

Koniving, on 12 September 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

The issue becomes a matter of can you hit your target. You must lead ballistic weapons. This makes them incompatible to fire at the same time as your energy weapons. But energy weapons are compatible with energy weapons.

You also have 2 lasers doing 13 damage per shot plus 5 7 damage lasers.
Or 2 uac5s doing 2.5 damage per bullet, 5 per burst, and an unreliable firing rate with only 4x7 damage lasers.

Think about it. In no way could they compare statistically.

This is exactly what I thought. But then... WHY is anyone playing the dakka-build?

[Metus regem]

Bersigil, on 12 September 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

This is exactly what I thought. But then... WHY is anyone playing the dakka-build?

DoT vs Burst.

A laser by it's very nature is Damage over time, in the case of the cERML that is 7 damage over 1.25 seconds or .056 damage/millisecond. The nature of how laser based weapons work in MWO it is possible to twist and move to force that 7 damage to be spread around on a target, where as things like a cUAC/5 while firing in a tight burst, is still possible to put those two shells into 0-2 sections on a target depending on how they move.

So think about it for a second, in the same instant that the cERML has done 1 damage, possibly divided into one or more locations, the cUAC/5 has put 2.5 damage into one location. The drawback for the cUAC/5 is that you need to be able to anticipate where your target is going to be, when you are firing.... I've dodge so many potatoes by simply walking sideways as they don't seem to get that concept of leading a target....

As to why 'everyone' is playing Dakka, it is really simple, to get the same effect as a single cUAC/10 you need 30-40 damage worth of lasers, because Dakka puts the damage in a concentrated location much quicker and more effectively than lasers do. The advantage of lasers is that they are idiot proof, as there is no skill in aiming required....

[Leone]

I brawl. Granted, I use Uac 10s instead of 5s, but the reason I do so is the heat. Sure, Lazers are nice and sync up well with more lasers, but I have a rather aggressive play-style, and the ballistics allow me to keep firing whilst running the red line on my heat. Sure, they can jam, but that's a worthwhile trade off for me. Heat management is one thing every mech out there hasta deal with. By taking ballistics and shorter ranged weaponry I can gain an edge in heat management over laser and longer ranged builds, allowing me to shine in my preferred engagement range.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 12 September 2017 - 11:54 AM.

[Bersigil]

Ok...
First of all: Thanks for all the helpful responses and in depth analysis of things I could (and should) have figured out myself. Its much appreciated.
@Steel Raven: you probalby solved my problem: I played the AC5 build more agressive to get more face-time and got more hit-in-the-face-time... ending my matches sooner, with less dmg. done and thus more losses. Continuously holding back I got a game today with 878 dmg and 3 kills.... and the rest wasn't bad (for my abilities at least) either.
Also: Thx for the explanations of how to make use of my mech and its weapons. I think the analysis of "lasers are idiot-proof and require no skill in leading" was exactly why I sucked so much with them. Will work on it!

[Koniving]

Good luck.

[Burning2nd]

i run my only pos wolf with 2 missile racks one projectile arm one laser arm

[Vxheous]

Bersigil, on 12 September 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

I could really use some help or explanations… I have 2 Timberwolves. One is a Laser Vomit build (2LPL, 5ERMLs), the other is a Dakka-Build (2UAC5 4ERML).

I use them parallel, so there is no good day or bad day, the statistics should be even - if the mechs where even. But over the last 150 games my W/L with the Laservomit is 1.14 (compared to the 0.60 with the Dakka), my K/D is 1.18 compared to 0.73 and the Damage done ist 30,667 to 23,394. So.. is the Dakka-Build simply inferior? Or is it me?

Dakka Build with 2 CUAC5 on a Timber is far inferior to the 2LPL/5ERML vomit build. If you want to dakka, you can try the 2xCUAC10 (5tons ammo) + 3ERML build.

Edited by Vxheous, 12 September 2017 - 04:16 PM.

[panzer1b]

U/AC-5s are in a really sad state on clan side right now, since they do not compare well to either the 10 or 2 class of weapons. If you think about it, its a ac-2 that does 2.5 damage per shot rather then 2 damage per shot, and because of lower velocity, is alot less consistent unless you are facehugging the enemy. In my experience, uac-2s beat uac-5s (on clan, IS at least gets PPFLD so uac-5s may beat uac2) any day since they get gauss velocity (2km/s is just about that spot where it becomes extremely difficult to dodge it and opens the door to shooting past 500m and still hitting a given component), both of them require facetime (1.5s for uac5s isnt enough to shield unless ur in a light mech), and both of them have very similar DPS (ac-2 = 2.8 vs ac-5 = 3). If you really want to run dual uac-5, i strongly encourage you to at least try dual uac-2 instead and see if you like it, it gets you a little less raw DPS, but what DPS you get is far more effective at more ranges and you get 4 tons to play with out of the deal (heatsinks, ammo, ect).

That said, laser vomit (or gauss vomit) is going to be better overall on the timber. It has less raw DPS, but it lets you walk out of cover and nail someone for a good amount of damage, lets you shield between shots, and its generally more effective at actually killing things compared to dakka.

If you really want to use dakka on a timber, the best thing ive tried has to be 1 uac-10, 3 tons ammo, 6 ERMLs, and everything else into heatsinks (after max armor ofc). Its got a very solid energy punch (42 alfa every 5 seconds adds up really quick), and if you dont jam on the first shot, the uac-10 applies good supplementary DPS and tends to blind and disorient the target which makes it much easier to kill them. Best of all this build (and the identical one that swaps the uac-10 and 2 HS for gauss) doesnt use that stupid triple energy LT and thus doesnt get shafted in the agility dept (neg quirks are so lame on that LT) and it doesnt get screwed entirely when half the mech is shot off. You are better off shielding with ur left initially since its better to loose a few lasers then the cannon, but if you notice ur low on ammo better to keep the energy intact.

[Koniving]

To improve Clan (or IS) ballistics, it is almost imperative to get velocity unlocks on the skill tree. Whether it is ACs, UACs, LBX, PPCs, Gauss Rifles or Missiles, maximize velocity to maximize your chance to hit what you want to hit.

If it weren't for the velocity issues, UAC/5s would easily outdo most laser weapons. And it does when those issues aren't issues, i.e. close range, perfect lead, stationary target. Capitalizing and maximizing on the velocity in the skill tree reduces this issue to its absolute minimum.

Personally I have a build that's still incredibly effective. Only difference between then and now is I have changed the MGs for Light MGs.


And my aim has improved.
Oh and I migrated it to my Prime for 3 MGs (now LMGs) at the drop of a single jumpjet and some minor tweak to armor to accommodate the difference in tonnage.

Edited by Koniving, 13 September 2017 - 12:47 PM.

[Bersigil]

..one more question...
Is there any reason why some people go for the 2LPL+4ERMeds + TC1 vs the 2LPL+5ERMeds?

[Davegt27]

one of my TW's has 3 UAC5's haven't used it in like a year and a half
I refused to take the build down just to pay homage to that face ripper
it would tear Mechs apart
I haven't even put any SP on it
it wont work anymore after many TW nerfs


one of the other TW's has 4 CERLL's

from the good old days of MWO where if you could come up
with stuff in the Mech lab to win

one time I mounted 4 CLPL's on a TW and went out and got 1400 DMG the first time out

yep used to be fun up in here

[The6thMessenger]

2x UAC5 + 4x ERML is decent on the TBR, but it only works depending on how you use it.

You alpha most of the time, and you only stop using your lasers when it's already pretty hot.



Laser Vomit would work better, but it doesn't mean that the build wouldn't work all the same.

[Shade4x]

Bersigil, on 12 September 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

I could really use some help or explanations… I have 2 Timberwolves. One is a Laser Vomit build (2LPL, 5ERMLs), the other is a Dakka-Build (2UAC5 4ERML).

I use them parallel, so there is no good day or bad day, the statistics should be even - if the mechs where even. But over the last 150 games my W/L with the Laservomit is 1.14 (compared to the 0.60 with the Dakka), my K/D is 1.18 compared to 0.73 and the Damage done ist 30,667 to 23,394. So.. is the Dakka-Build simply inferior? Or is it me?

So the big difference between lasers and Dakka is that you have to be accurate with Dakka do do well, where lasers you have to be good at positioning to do well with them. Because of this, the damage numbers are not equal. Lasers spread over targets which also give you assists (and raises your K/D), and lets be honest, all the laser drags where you nip someone do add up. I pretty much have figured this conversion chart since beta.
LRM's, SRM's, MG's = 0.5x damage
Rotary AC, Lasers = 1x damage
PPC's, AC 5 and under = 2x damage
AC 10 and up = 3x damage
Guass = 4x Damage

The other big problem with AC5's is that often you feel your trading well, when your really not. Remember, AC5's and 2's are DPS weapons. Most high alpha based mech's will out trade you simply by alphaing you and turning their shoulders to tank. This is why lasers and AC/20's are so good.

[panzer1b]

Shade4x, on 16 September 2017 - 12:51 AM, said:

So the big difference between lasers and Dakka is that you have to be accurate with Dakka do do well, where lasers you have to be good at positioning to do well with them. Because of this, the damage numbers are not equal. Lasers spread over targets which also give you assists (and raises your K/D), and lets be honest, all the laser drags where you nip someone do add up. I pretty much have figured this conversion chart since beta.
LRM's, SRM's, MG's = 0.5x damage
Rotary AC, Lasers = 1x damage
PPC's, AC 5 and under = 2x damage
AC 10 and up = 3x damage
Guass = 4x Damage

The other big problem with AC5's is that often you feel your trading well, when your really not. Remember, AC5's and 2's are DPS weapons. Most high alpha based mech's will out trade you simply by alphaing you and turning their shoulders to tank. This is why lasers and AC/20's are so good.

You have a good point here, but id say that you weighed weapons a bit odd. Personally, id place lasers at x2 or x3 since a skilled player is capable of keeping the entire beam duration on a single component, and aside from gauss, NO other weapon in the game is reliably going to deal damage to a single component every time you fire past brawl range (on a good game i personally can get ~75% if not more of the laser damage on a single component, be it CT or one ST unless the enemy is in a very agile mech like a fast medium or light in which case i dump at least 50% or so into legs which ads up fast on a mech with such low HP).

Ofc if you have aimbot like accuracy, or the enemy is at point blank, the ac-5/10 will be relatively consistent, but even then, its very doubtful that you will hit the same component every time, and if you hit torso/ST 50/50, you are already at a huge disadvantage against a laser boat that nails one of your components less often but for much more effective damage (not to mention the ability to shield for 5-6 seconds after every shot to protect your primary torso that anything smaller then ac-10 cannot do, and ac-20 velocity is so horrible, you have no chance of hitting exactly what you want outside of maybee 200m)

[Jormunrek]

With the current state of the game you would basically see an increase in everything by swapping out those AC's for mg's of a size of your choosing...